arm triangle flawed in general?

i'm as amature as they come but i've followed the sport for some time now and it seems to me that the arm triangle is seriously flawed in general. i've seen lots of people get choked out with this move in the UFC or tap when rolling on the mat. here are my thoughts:

it's locked in and they are in side control and u have a guy squeezing around ur neck and one raised arm. your laying on ur back, arm above ur head waiting to tap or pass out...... but why? the fix is so simple, use ur two arms that are laying there! lock ur hands together and direct the power of ur whole upper body into his head. u have two choices, drive ur elbow into his face and head bending it way to the side until he gives up trying or grind ur elbow along his head until you clear ur own trapped arm. no matter how big or strong a guy is, it's only his head that is trapping ur arm and you've got a perfect crowbar to pry into his face!

http://www.10thplanetjj.com/threads/...-Chris-Holland

Are you sure it's flawed? Braulio doesn't seem to agree.

Troll?

Good luck with that escape.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Good luck with that escape.

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+1

upper body power... flat on your back with somebody squeezing the s**t out of your neck.... not really working this way

I'm now dumber for having read that, I award you no points, and may good have mercy on your soul.

Interesting thought. Try it out with my arm triangle... see how long you stay awake trying that defense.
Unless your name is Lesnar, I would say less than 7 seconds.

I know right!? Like the rear naked choke, you've got two free hands. Just reach up and pull his arm off. Or most armbars. Just stand up. I never get submitted.

Just watch Braulio :-)

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Originally Posted by chris2013

i'm as amature as they come but i've followed the sport for some time now and it seems to me that the arm triangle is seriously flawed in general. i've seen lots of people get choked out with this move in the UFC or tap when rolling on the mat. here are my thoughts:

it's locked in and they are in side control and u have a guy squeezing around ur neck and one raised arm. your laying on ur back, arm above ur head waiting to tap or pass out...... but why? the fix is so simple, use ur two arms that are laying there! lock ur hands together and direct the power of ur whole upper body into his head. u have two choices, drive ur elbow into his face and head bending it way to the side until he gives up trying or grind ur elbow along his head until you clear ur own trapped arm. no matter how big or strong a guy is, it's only his head that is trapping ur arm and you've got a perfect crowbar to pry into his face!

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uhhhhh...Go find someone that doesnt train solely in a garage to slap an arm triangle on you and see if this logic works for you. If it was that easy do you think the arm triangle would have lasted in this style?

I'll be the only one here that isn't condescending. Listen man, it seems super simple, but try it. The only way to really tell if something like your idea works, is to try it. With my personal experience, although your method may buy a little, baby bit of time, it's not effective. In the arm triangle you have no use of your strangled arm and at most times your free arm can get pinned in various locations.

A lot of times if someone has a good arm triangle just getting your arm back to your head to "answer the phone" is difficult enough let alone back over and in front of their head and face.

From what I can understand, Youre saying once in an arm-triangle, join your hands together, and use that to push your elbow into their head, correct? (Or use it to clear their head). I think its a good idea to try out, but I feel like the biggest problem would be that arm triangles are meant to be applied VERY tight. And you have to remember, they dont just have their head pushing against your arm, the have their whole body weight laying behind that head pushing into you. In a sense, youd not only have to be able to move the weight of their body back, away from yours.. but they also have THEIR hands locked, and theyre squeezing the entire time. So Youd have to push hard enough to move their body + release that squeeze theyve got on you. Just my thoughts.. But I say for every new move you think of, try it out on the mats. Worst case scenario you learn more about the move that youre trying to defend against, and you can be better prepared next time.

i knew I was gonna get this kind of response but thats fine!

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Originally Posted by chris2013

i knew I was gonna get this kind of response but thats fine!

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The arm triangle is legit bro, even Bruce lee applied it...All levels use it with success so I'm not sure what you are basing your judgement on.

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Originally Posted by chris2013

i knew I was gonna get this kind of response but thats fine!

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If ya knew it, why'd ya do it. That is almost open admission that you were just trollin'

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Originally Posted by Greg W

If ya knew it, why'd ya do it. That is almost open admission that you were just trollin'

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Taylor?!?!

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Originally Posted by chris2013

i'm as amature as they come but i've followed the sport for some time now and it seems to me that the arm triangle is seriously flawed in general. i've seen lots of people get choked out with this move in the UFC or tap when rolling on the mat. here are my thoughts:

it's locked in and they are in side control and u have a guy squeezing around ur neck and one raised arm. your laying on ur back, arm above ur head waiting to tap or pass out...... but why? the fix is so simple, use ur two arms that are laying there! lock ur hands together and direct the power of ur whole upper body into his head. u have two choices, drive ur elbow into his face and head bending it way to the side until he gives up trying or grind ur elbow along his head until you clear ur own trapped arm. no matter how big or strong a guy is, it's only his head that is trapping ur arm and you've got a perfect crowbar to pry into his face!

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http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...photos/err.gif

Let me help you out.

First, understand that people are going to be condescending for a reason: an admitted noob just said that a consistently effective 100+ year old submission hold is "seriously flawed in general."

2ndly, just because there's an escape to it doesn't mean the whole submission is flawed. There are escapes to triangle chokes. Escapes from armbars. It doesn't mean they're flawed.

3rd, it sounds like you don't understand the arm triangle and haven't been put into too many legit arm triangles. That defense might work well before the triangle is locked 100% (maybe). Once you're in a fully locked arm triangle, like Dewitt said, it's hard enough to answer the phone. And playing the game of "pain vs blood choke" is a recipe for passing out.

As usual, David Rosado brings the epic Clip of failure! Was hoping for the Simpsons one. That one had me pissing my pants with laughter!

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...photos/err.gif

Let me help you out.

First, understand that people are going to be condescending for a reason: an admitted noob just said that a consistently effective 100+ year old submission hold is "seriously flawed in general."

2ndly, just because there's an escape to it doesn't mean the whole submission is flawed. There are escapes to triangle chokes. Escapes from armbars. It doesn't mean they're flawed.

3rd, it sounds like you don't understand the arm triangle and haven't been put into too many legit arm triangles. That defense might work well before the triangle is locked 100% (maybe). Once you're in a fully locked arm triangle, like Dewitt said, it's hard enough to answer the phone. And playing the game of "pain vs blood choke" is a recipe for passing out.

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Great post

Chris, this is really easy. Your logic is that you can use your elbow to pry his head away. It's the same logic you see in action movies, were you see the hero elbow the villain in the head when he's got his back. The only problem with reality is that when you try to elbow a guy that has your back, you won't connect with your elbow 99% of the time, you'll connect with your triceps. Same with the arm triangle. He's putting pressure on your shoulder. His head is nowhere near your elbow. Leverage wise, you've already lost the battle. All you have is your triceps, with less leverage than he's got, so you're stuck. Your elbow can't reach his face because he's in too tight.
The reason the arm triangle doesn't work sometimes is because the angle has to be right, the grip, and all the mechanics. I suck at it, half the time I'm just cranking the guys neck. The other half it's tight, and they tap. But as far as escaping it, people rarely escape it when it's on.

The arm triangle is oooold..! :D Before the Marquise of Queensbery in the 1800's, wrestling was still allowed in boxing, and even the boxers utilized it. (Standing arm triangles)

My best advice is to test it for yourself. have a good bjj practitioner slap it on, and try to escape! You'll see why it's hard. (Unless you have retard strength) I've found that if I can move my body from side to side, and use all my strength early on, ( I'm pretty strong corewise), I might escape it. But that's not my elbow, that's my whole body trying to get to it's feet. And even then, half the time it just speeds up the process, and I tap even earlier.

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Originally Posted by Jason 'J-Faz' Farren

I'm now dumber for having read that, I award you no points, and may good have mercy on your soul.

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+1

The Arm Triangle is the best submission for MMA, in my opinion.

nevermind bas rutten already pointed this escape out with a slightly different method..... I kinda knew this had to be a defense. it always got me in a rage when people just lay there like they have two usesless arms

Could u post a video demo of the proposed escape? I can't really visualize this well at the moment...

Ryan Hall and Jeff Glover have really nice arm triangle defences. I can't find the clips but the one Ryan uses is really strong he bases using his free arm with his hand flat against his lower back which raises his hips vertical as high as possible allowing lots of space to breath, almost as if its as far removed as being flat as could be in that podition.
It's probably the same one I've seen Jeff glover use but in jeffs case he rolled in one movement and ended up on top.

Ryan's was against Robson Moura I think, or it could have been Cobrinha.

Eddie survived Leo Veiera's arm triangle.

Isn't the arm triangle like, Eddie's best move in his whole game? It seems like if he's not catching guys with rubber guard/spiderweb/the truck, he's taking them out with arm triangles from any position.

Pretty silly question for a forum on that guy's website.

The only legit defense I've come across to a fully locked in arm triangle is taking the trapped arm passing it under your opposite leg and clasping your hands together. You then push down with your leg using lower body strength to make room to breathe. But even then a guy can go knee on belly and smash your leg down to break your grip and finish.

Pretty sure it's your escape that is flawed. For the hell of it I'll try it this week and when i go to sleep ill blame you ok?

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Originally Posted by Jeremy Gates

Pretty sure it's your escape that is flawed. For the hell of it I'll try it this week and when i go to sleep ill blame you ok?

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Ill make sure to go for it extra hard then Jeremy. Ill be back to rolling Tuesday. My arm triangle vs Noobtastic defense.
I like the odds aleady.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkodTydUR0E

So there are actually escapes? I stand corrected.. :( As my grandmother said, as long as you live, you learn.. A good saying. (her surviving WWII might have something to do with it too, but I just realized that) :p

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Originally Posted by John Flores

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkodTydUR0E

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+1

WAIT, so it's like a triangle but with your arms?...No wonder it don't work, Ya'll niggaz craaazy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUOHctF0H_s&feature=related