sub only vs. points

so i got this email today from marcus avellan about the new rule systems being used. i disagree with most of what he has to say, but it got me thinking.

what do you guys think about this?

I hate this statement and I'll tell you why.

Recently there was a big "submission only" tournament with
many big name grapplers. The rules were simple... no
points, if it goes the distance, it is a draw. You have
twenty minutes to tap out your opponent.

One of the grapplers in the tournament trains in an
advertised "self defense oriented" style of jiujitsu and
doesn't compete much. He went up against a multiple time
"points" world champion. The match ended in a draw - nobody
got the tap.

Now... I didn't see the match... but apparently the points
champ secured a ridiculous amount of guard passes, mounts,
etc. With only a few minutes left, the self defense guy
tried some offense of his own and didn't get the tap.

Then on facebook and on the forums, all the self defense
guy's fans were posting how they didn't care about the guard
passes because they train for self defense... and I quote
one poster: "That match and the whole evening showed us that
points don't mean s**t..."

What do I think?

I think that training with points in mind is a super
valuable tool for self defense. What? But points is
"sport" training, right?

Jiujitsu and all forms of martial arts originated as forms
of combat. However, we cannot train everyday with full
blown strikes to the head, so we create safer "games" to
train under to help simulate combat. Every martial art has
their own form of "sparring". Kickboxing uses big gloves,
head gear, and bans certain strikes (no head butts, no groin
shots, etc.). Tae Kwon Do allows kicks to the head but no
punches to the head. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu allows takedowns
and submission holds but no strikes. What do all three of
these sets of rules have in common? That they are all
designed to produce better martial artists that are more
capable of defending themselves in actual combat.

So why did the whole BJJ points system come about? To help
guide the grapplers to grappling in a combative style. For
instance, if we were grappling and you were to mount me, in
a real fight, you could land much more devastating strikes.
To help me understand the importance of NOT getting mounted,
we award points to my opponent, so now I'm "losing" the
match. That is why mount is worth four points - versus
three points for side control. The mount is a more
devastating position than side control in a real fight...
and back mount with the hooks is worth four points as well
because in a real fight, the top person can land devastating
downward elbow strikes to the back of the skull (visit this
link to see Murilo Bustamante demonstrate this versus Chris
Haseman in a bareknuckle no rules fight in 1996:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B97oHJzj-oI )

In other words, if I beat you in a grappling session by a
score of 12 to 0, it means that I was able to put myself
multiple times into advantageous positions that may have
allowed me to inflict serious damage on you. The "points"
are a tool to make sure you are keeping the fundamental
positioning in mind throughout your roll.

What about submissions? Yes, submissions are important
because they end fights - but to think that grappling is
ONLY about submissions is disregarding the whole self
defense aspect of grappling training. The ONLY thing
"submission only" events prove is who is better at executing
submissions... not who is a better fighter or who is more
capable of defending themselves in a real combat scenario.
It would be like doing a free throw contest to determine who
is the best basketball player... free throws are only a part
of basketball.

Are points the end of all things? No. If you do not train
how to finish with strikes from the mount, side control,
etc., then you may be developing false confidence in your
positioning abilities. For instance, think of all the MMA
fights you have seen where a grappler will take down his
opponent, pass his guard, mount him, and do NOTHING... then
later get reversed and lose! I've seen it way too much.

However, if you grapple with complete disregard for "points"
because you are practicing for "self defense", then I
recommend you put on gloves and play the same game and see
how applicable it is to give up mount or side control to go
for a low percentage funky submission.

If you don't like keeping guard or grappling for position
and just like going for submissions - THAT IS FINE.
However, you are practicing for a submission game - not for
real combat. If you are ok with that, that is fine,
submission grappling "submission only" style is a sport...
but don't call what you are doing "self defense".

Is the point system a perfect way to train for violence? No.
Many people abuse the loop holes and lose the spirit of
what it is about. Is the point system a much better way to
prepare for combat than no points? 100% most definitely. I'm
not impressed with someone getting mounted twenty times,
doing nothing for 20 minutes, and then pulling off an armbar
victory at the very end. That would NOT fly on the street.
But that sort of victory would impress a lot of "self
defense" practitioners... probably because they have never
been in a fight and cannot appreciate the mega importance of
advanced positioning.

Yes, I'm ranting at this point... it's just that nothing
annoys me more than people that lack jiujitsu skill trying to
justify their inability to keep guard or stay on top and
write it off as, "yeah, but I'm practicing self defense,
sure I got mounted twenty times, but did he tap me? NOPE!!!
That's because I practice self defense!" I've had such a
guy grapple me once in training... and when I passed his
guard, Mr. Self Defense immediately LOCKED his hands
together to prevent me from going for a submission (keep in
mind I haven't even touched his wrists yet). This is
supposed to be self defense? He later told me I was a good
"sport" grappler but needed to work on my ability to finish
- and I quickly replied, "When you had your hands locked, I
would have dropped elbows and knees on your head and
finished just fine..." That is why at our academy, you're
not allowed to lock your hands together when you get guard
passed or mounted. You can pull your hand out of a
submission, but you can't lock your hands from bottom mount
and look at your opponent with that, "make your move"
look... you could get your teeth punched out in a real fight
- and the point of martial arts is for "martial" combat.
Competitions create a sporting atmosphere for us to practice
our techniques and somewhat simulate real combat to help
better prepare us for the real thing.

Like I said, if you don't care about self defense or combat
- disregard my entire email. But if you do care about self
defense and combat - then keep your guard, secure proper
positioning, and don't lock your freakin' hands together in
bad positions - work out of bad positions! :)

Sincerely,
Marcos Avellan
www.MarcosAvellan.com
1-888-FFA-GYMS

Meh, nobody likes to see a 10 minute 50/50 battle end in an advantage point either...

That email reads like sour grapes to me...

My completely worthless opinion is that there is room for both the points game as well as the sub only game. There should be allowed to co-exist but as different classes perhaps, not sure how it could be done but IMWO, it might even lead to more growth.

GB

He's definitely not wrong. I agree with him.

The main problem is as he stated. Manipulation of the point system waters the sport down. I just think legit sub positions and attempts should be weighted more. What we call 'deadzones'.

I understand the original intent of points. But unfortunately - "points players" have ruined the sport.
It went from a submit your opponent mindset (while being awarded points in case it didn't happen) to points mindset.

And points mindset is boring. And nobody likes boring.

One thought I had was to keep track of the time between points. If no points have been awarded in "x" minutes the fighters are stood back up. No matter the position that person was holding at the time.

This would encourage a grappler to continue to try to improve his position and eventually the tap. But as I type this I can already see how people would manipulate the rules in order to continue to be a points fighter (with no intention of finishing).

So I say have the two different tournaments and then let those that prefer to finish fights in one and those that like to wrestle fight in the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

He's definitely not wrong. I agree with him.

The main problem is as he stated. Manipulation of the point system waters the sport down. I just think legit sub positions and attempts should be weighted more. What we call 'deadzones'.

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I agree as well. For BJJ to be a sport, there has to be a point system and points are given weight based on the severity of how much of an advantage one person has. Just as he says, there's a reason obtaining mount is worth so many points: it's a very dominant position.

I don't hate the idea of "submission only" tournaments, but I just happen to think that limiting it to that aspect is tough at such an elite level. We saw three submissions on Sunday, and three draws, but from my perspective watching Galvao and Ryron it was clear to me who the winner was.

[QUOTE= I'm
not impressed with someone getting mounted twenty times,
doing nothing for 20 minutes, and then pulling off an armbar
victory at the very end.[/QUOTE]

Yeh, but how impressed are you with the guy that has mount 20 times in twenty minutes and still can't finish the match with a sub???

Marcos Avellan thank you for your email. I agree with the point you make, but i don't think your analysis of the fight and it's merits was a fair one.

Please watch the fight. I really think you should watch it first before sending an email like this.

Though the point you make in your email is a valid one i still think Ryron's strategy has a lot of merit and is a valuable skill to have as a "real world fighter".

Galvão is a beast, not just technique wise but also physically. But all that strength and explosion comes at a price, you will tire faster and that was the only hand Ryron could play.

Yes Galvão had the better positioning during the first 13 minutes of the match, but to achieve it he spent lots of energy and while in those dominant positions he had to hold on very tight to keep Ryron under control (always using the lapel control, wich means no hands free for punches). If he had loosen that control to throw punches there is a very good chance Andre would have lost the position. In fact even though Galvão hold on tight, Ryron still managed to always improve is position.

Also i don't remember Galvão ever mounting Ryron. He tried to mount but was immediately rolled over;

If this wasn't impressive enough, Ryron was able to be super relaxed and only breathing through his nose, minimizing energy spent while still never being in any real danger of submission by Andre. With all that strength, explosion and dominant positions Andre did never manage to put Ryron in any danger of submission.

After the first 13 minutes Andre's power was severely affected, to the point he could no longer pass Ryron's guard. Also he seemed to have quit, he just stopped trying, and we all know fighting is as much psychological as is physical. The role's started to change, Ryron was know becoming the aggressor and Andre was just trying to hold on. Andre even started to pull guard and i caught Andre looking at the clock at least too times.

Ryron did all this to Andre Galvão. It was very impressive.

What you said is valid but the way Ryron fought was also a form of self defense in my opinion.

Please watch the fight and tell us what you think and if i am wrong.

Thank you again for your email and all you have done for Jiu Jitsu!

Isnt this exactly why Eddie's been looking at combat jiu jitsu?

i dont necessarily agree with him on the bad self defence part. so from bottom mount what should you do in a self defence situation, just stick your arms out in all directions and flail around? keeping tight to block punches and not have your aggressor pin a wrist down to beat you up is legit. what he said about the point system and people abusing it is true, but giving points for positions based on the ability to throw punches in a rule set that doesnt allow punches is silly IMO. jiu jitsu tournaments arent supposed to simulate real life, its a game.

i felt he had some very valid points, but i disagree on the premise of the his argument. just my humble opinion though.

While I do secure positions I'm still always hunting and trying to set up submissions. If I lose because some one grinded on me for an entire round and didn't attempt subs or was t good at them , I don't feel as bad as a guy making me tap. I'm not a fan of just grinding out and winning by points. In a street fight yeah I will try to mount and throw bombs rather than being in guard but as far as competing in grappling you should be securing a position then trying to finish

Hey guys, thanks for posting up the email and for sharing your views on it. The only thing missing was the email title, which is what the rant was about, and the email title was, "I don't grapple for points, I train for self defense..."

I'm not saying that tournaments should be points or sub only - I'm saying that if you are training for self defense, then there should be an understanding that getting your guard passed or mounted is bad (and that is what points do).

However, if you are a grappling fan (like you don't care about self defense application, you are simply a sport grappler) and you think points make matches boring - THAT IS SUPER COOL! :) However, one should not confuse a "submission only" strategy that has a total disregard for positioning as a grappling style that promotes self defense.

For instance, Greg W asks me, "Yeh, but how impressed are you with the guy that has mount 20 times in twenty minutes and still can't finish the match with a sub???"

See, I train BJJ strictly for violence, whether it be self defense or MMA competition, so as much as I appreciate submissions (almost 40% of my grappling victories were by submission) I do understand that submissions are not a requirement for ending a fight. If you can mount an opponent 20 times in 20 minutes, who needs to submit him? Punch him out.

For instance, if you were to grapple an opponent that you would later have to fight in MMA or in the street, and in your grappling session, you got taken down, guard passed, and mounted at will for twenty minutes... and then with 30 seconds left, you tap him with a guillotine off of one of his shots... how confident would you be about your MMA fight with him later? Now let's say that when you grapple him, instead you were able to take HIM down, pass his guard at will, and you spent the entire twenty minutes mounting him and taking his back... but you couldn't submit him... how confident are you about you upcoming MMA or street fight with him? THAT is the difference.

So it really depends on what your goals are.

Also, I am NOT knocking Ryron in any shape or form. I haven't seen the match and I think the match was a tie because that is what the rules said. Nobody got tapped - it is a tie. Speculation of who "won" the match is stupid because it is a clear tie. If I was in a match like that, maybe a "rope-a-dope" strategy would be useful to tire out your opponent before going for the sub, since there are no points being scored. I'm not knocking that and I did not talk against the strategy in my email.

What I did bash, and will continue to bash, is anyone that says the match was fought with a "self defense" style and that his performance at the event versus Galvao proved that his style of grappling is more effective for self defense.

Many are arguing that point and THAT is what I'm bashing. I'm very against the "self defense spin" that some grapplers do when they get scored 20 to 0 but didn't get submitted.

Did Ryron say anything about self defense and how this draw validated his style of grappling as being superior to Galvao's for self defense? Probably not (at least I hope not). My rant was for the "self defense grapplers" that suck at position arguing that they don't care because "points don't matter for self defense". It wasn't targeted at the Gracies.

I've competed in three no time limit ammy mma matches where the rules dictated that they didn't end until somebody got KO'ed or submitted and I won all three matches by submission, a couple of them went past 25 minutes, so I can appreciate the art of this sort of competition. I'm not bashing the rules of the competition, the concept of the competition, or the competitor's strategies for winning - I'm bashing the whole "self defense" thing about points not mattering and a submission only match being proof of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

i dont necessarily agree with him on the bad self defence part. so from bottom mount what should you do in a self defence situation, just stick your arms out in all directions and flail around?

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Personally, I believe you should commit to one escape with everything you got, whether it be to bridge him over, push at his hips with both hands and replace butterfly guard, push his knee with both hands to replace guard, underhooking under the leg to come out the back, etc., all while knowing you are most likely going to eat a few punches in the process. I don't believe in locking my hands together and looking up at him. I also don't believe in turtling up either. Turtling up with your forearms to block punches to your face doesn't require any technique and will always be there for you when you are gassed and get mounted in a fight - so in training you should always focus on escaping bad positions with technique, and with urgency. In a real fight, you can't really chill from bottom mount the same way you can chill from bottom guard. Unless the mounted opponent is gassed and is chilling as well... but I don't want to depend on that.

I love sub only tournaments I also love inverted guards and other places where someone could stomp on your face. I pull guard all the time. When I'm on the street in a violent situation I'm not going to buttscoot.

I think Marcos has it more right than not in regards to self defence.

I'll still take sub only over points to compete in because I have more fun.

Thanks for the elaboration marcos. Just for the record, i am a huge fan of you and your brothers and am on the email list because of the great information you guys share.

This post was meant to start a conversation, not to bash you or your ideas.

I agree that sitting in the bottom of mount isnt exactly a display of good self defense. Also, imo, most tournament style grappling strategies arent really "self defence" minded anyways. You would never jump guard in the streets. So for someone to have said that in the first place is a little silly.

Keep sub only, kill the time limits. Or, after (X) time has passed, allow strikes.

points = boaring sub only = excitment metamoris is the most exciting jiujitsu event ever. Eddie was pumped during his interview with inside bjj after the event

I don't think that defending a submission for 15 minutes was being marketed as a self defense strategy. I just think that Ryron's self defense focused training allowed him to have a skill set which could defend dominate positions for 15 minutes in an effort to gas out Galvao. Glover tried the exact same strategy but eventually he got caught.

I think everybody would prefer a more aggressive approach to jiujitsu but in a self defense scenario you cannot guarantee that you will always be the more aggressive one. Using his submission defense skills Ryron was able to negate any attack or aggression by Galvao while whittling away at his energy. People were cheering Ryron, not because he bested Galvao (because he clearly didn't) but because "on paper" he should have been destroyed in the first 5 minutes by Galvao. I guarantee you that this week, there are white belts who watched that card who are going to be happy as hell when they can thwart off the gym gorilla for 5 minutes. It was inspiring and it reminded us that there are skills outside of the sports paradigm (passive patient defense) which are just as important as the skills found within it.

Marcos, love the videos and the awesome work you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

I don't think that defending a submission for 15 minutes was being marketed as a self defense strategy. I just think that Ryron's self defense focused training allowed him to have a skill set which could defend dominate positions for 15 minutes in an effort to gas out Galvao. Glover tried the exact same strategy but eventually he got caught.

I think everybody would prefer a more aggressive approach to jiujitsu but in a self defense scenario you cannot guarantee that you will always be the more aggressive one. Using his submission defense skills Ryron was able to negate any attack or aggression by Galvao while whittling away at his energy. People were cheering Ryron, not because he bested Galvao (because he clearly didn't) but because "on paper" he should have been destroyed in the first 5 minutes by Galvao. I guarantee you that this week, there are white belts who watched that card who are going to be happy as hell when they can thwart off the gym gorilla for 5 minutes. It was inspiring and it reminded us that there are skills outside of the sports paradigm (passive patient defense) which are just as important as the skills found within it.

Marcos, love the videos and the awesome work you do.

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Well said!

All he is saying is that his philosophy is you should always grapple as if your opponent can strike. Even if he cant. Eddie has a very similar one. I share it as well. Mma is not a game, nor is true self defense. It is a fight. Strikes are aloud and a serious threat of violence. His ability to strike me is ALWAYS on my mind especially from dominant positions, so i have great urgency to protect my self and escape.

Smiling at an opponent who has you mounted is a game.

Master Avellan, I would also like to express my gratitude for your time and presence. Question. Do you think the current point system is acceptable? Any improvements or omissions you would make?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cody Kietzman

Meh, nobody likes to see a 10 minute 50/50 battle end in an advantage point either...

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You obviously didn't read the article. Avellan said the same thing as you in there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greg W

Yeh, but how impressed are you with the guy that has mount 20 times in twenty minutes and still can't finish the match with a sub???

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It is tough as shit to finish someone that has trained their entire life with the singular goal and philosophy of not being submitted. Not only that, but the submissions that galvao typically likes to hunt for were just not there for him, and Ryron was doing a great job of not letting Galvao get to the spots where his most powerful finishes are.

Even eddie says it all the time. If someone does the "home alone" and does nothing but lie there, it's damn near impossible to finish them with anything, and that goes for unskilled people doing that. Ryron is a fantastic grappler.

You could punch his Micaulay Culkin actin ass in the face. And he should act accordingly. Cept you cant. Hence the problem.