What is going on? So sad.
What is going on? So sad.
An absolute Tragedy. Connecticut elementary school shooting: 27 confirmed dead, including 18 children http://suntm.es/UGjANDQuote:
Originally Posted by Louis Ho
What a fucking shame
but nobody wants to talk gun control, do regular civilians really need assault rifles ? & what is with thease people that want assault rifles no matter what ? if you can afford it ! just home school your kids. we had metal detectors in my high school that were standard. maybe we need them for all public places. all thease fucking cowardly gun nuts need to stop being so selfish, & thease dudes would have to have black market connections to get assault rifles if banned. witch most don't, the dude in colorado would not have been able to get his rifles through the black market because he was square with no street ties. and the same for this dude i bet, and believe it or not dudes in the criminal world don't kill elementary school kids, they only kill dudes in the game that are snitching or owe money. this is a suburban community with law abiding citizens & only law abiding citizens do this type of shit not street cats
So fucking sad! :-(
It is definitely extremely unfortunate and upsetting. Let's be thankful for all of the police and EMS workers who risked their lives to handle the situation.
In response to Derrick's comment: Even if there were a magical ban suddenly on any firearms it would be impossible to actually take them away from the people that already have them. There is actually a phrase used by grassroots gun enthusiast types, you can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molon_labe
The worst assault on a school happened in 1927. A former school board member in Bath Township Michigan killed 45 people with bombs. A week ago a guy killed 3 people with a crossbow. Yesterday a man in china killed 12 kids at a school with a knife. This has nothing to do with the weapon the killer chose to commit his crime. This is an extreme mental health issue we have in this country. A call to ban any type of weapon would be just as effective as our countries war on drugs. The vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and the vast majority of guns used to commit crime in this country are obtained illegally. Plus the "assault rifle" designation is nothing more than a description of the way a gun looks. There are plenty of high capacity semi auto guns that are not classified as assault weapons. The evidence for gun control as an effective way to curb these events is in clear contrast to the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
It's always shocking when these things happen, especially when it's right in our backyard. My heart goes out to all involved. Much respect needs to be given the teachers and administration at the school for doing what they could to keep the children safe. My fiance is a teacher at a middle school in CT so this is especially a reality check for us.
I honestly hope this thread doesn't turn a debate over gun control, let us just show respect towards the communities that were affected by sending POSITIVE energy their way.
man i wish that was true, but reality is, if thease dudes could only get hand guns then they will still kill people no doubt, but they would run out of ammo after 17 shots then get jumped and beaten to death, certainly the dude in colorado would have gotten jumped and mangled after he ran out of ammo with the first hand gun with all those military dudes in the crowd. this guy ould have been able to fight off those teachers. but with a assault rifles with 223 rounds and 100 round clips shit man you can kill a whole trained platoon with one gun and body armor. it's just a equippment issue 100 round rifles are more deadly than 15 round hand guns. & a reload time. we can't forget that the assault rifle was created by the germans in ww2 the sturm guvere, and it was designed to kill a lot of shit & wipe out whole squads. I grew up with guns, in oklahoma you learn how to shoot very early i've always loved guns but enough is enough man. and that dude in china could have never done that shit in the states because some one would have jumped his ass. all thease gun nuts & the NRA will only give a fuck when there kid gets killed at school. until then they would even like to buy rpg's if they couldQuote:
Originally Posted by Jeff V
If the person was black he would be considered a thug, if muslim he would be a terriorist, but because he's white he is mentally ill. Anyways im still baffled on how a man can look at little kids in the eye and kill them. I never thought anything like this can happen in CT but it did, just goes to show anything can happen anywhere.
The worst part about it is that most of these families celebrate christmas and just a few days before christmas some moron decides to shoot up the school and kill 5-10 year olds. Fucked up christmas for the people who lost loved ones.
SOOO tragic. Gun control/bans only keep guns out of law abiding citizens hands. Bad guys will always find a way to have guns, always. If the 8 adults that were killed were all carrying, my guess is that kid would have killed many fewer inocent people.
What about banning first person shooter video games that train and condition these kids how to kill from an early age. Nascar drivers use driving games to condition and hone there driving skills, what do you think shooter games do to kids that play starting at age 5-6 and play for 15 years straight. What do we preach in BJJ? REPS,REPS,REPS. You rep a move 1000 times in Training and you can do it without even thinking during fight time!! Yes, I have personally witnessed a 6 year old playing COD. There is also something to be said about family values and parenting gone to crap in our culture!!
The people need to be able to protect themselves from the government if need be. The government is certainly not going to do away with their guns. It is a Constitutional freedom. It would be an absolute dog-shit precedent to set to do away with something form the bill of rights, next it will be your freedom of speech or religion. That guy could have made a bomb - poisoned their food - used a goddamn sword - it doesn't matter - where there's a will there's a way. This is far more a reflection of societal sickness than a condemnation of firearms.Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
In the book "inside the mind of a teen killer" by Phil Chalmers, there is a forward written by Lt. Col., U.S. Army (ret). The Lt. Col is a author and speaker, he wrote several books of which, On Killing, and On Combat, are fantastic reads. The Forward reads (I'm not going to quote all of it) a study published by University of Mass and Harvard in 2002 demonstrated that if we had 1970's level medical technology today, the murder rate would be three to four times what it is. If we had 1930's level evacuation, transportation, and medical technology the murder rate would probably be at least ten times what it is today. If we had frontier level medical technology, the rate at which we would be successfully killing each other could be fifteen times what it is now. ......We live in times that make the violence of the old west pale in comparison.
It isn't just the U.S., it is in every industrialized country in the world. There is every reason to believe that it is going to get worse.
These type of killers today want you and everybody else to feel their pain, and they are going to show you their pain. Is it cowardly, pathetic, and disgusting? Absolutely. Is it going to end? Research in the field indicates that since 911 and the writing of Phil Chalmers book, teenagers have killed 12,000 people, the terrorists killed 3,000 in comparison. These teenagers become the adults in our communties.
On page 187 of his book,the section labeled keeping your school and community safe, he writes " the first thing we need to do to keep our schools and communities safe is to pull the heads of all school and community leaders out of the sand! Many of them are too naive to imagine that a violent crime or school shooting could happen in their neighborhood....he names several schools in which this has occurred. He says to take the approach that violence of any caliber CAN happen in your town and in your school.
this is only a very small piece of his writing and lt. col Grossman's writings, both of which are well known experts in the field.
Our hearts go out to the victims and their families. I just can't understand why someone would go so low and kill innocent people, children at that. Shit like that really makes me think about what kind of security they have at our kids schools.
Most have none. some have a metal detector. some have a school officer present who may or may not be armed depending on the leanings of the school board (some fear a gun in school). SOme schools have several armed officer or security people on hand. The number one reason every school doesn't have an armed guard is primarily funding. We can pay teachers their scale (not busting on teachers), we can have newer buses, we can have million dollar stadiums and sport complexes, but paying 2-3 people per year for security is a budget breaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidBaut
Most schools have lockdown and emergency drills, depending on their size and geographic location will determine the police response time. To gather a tactical unit at the average school would require hours, unless your in a large metropolitan area with a substantive police force.
Would an armed guard at the school have stopped this? maybe/maybe not, but I know which I would prefer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
I hate to break it to you but he used two pistols, not an assault rifle. This means he emptied and reloaded and no one beat home to death. Sorry your theory fails. Making guns illegal will not prevent tragedies. Making guns harder for mentally ill people to obtain might help, but in the end, killers will always kill. Law abiding citizens dont commit these acts. criminals with mental problems do. and while thugs may not use their guns to shoot up schools, they do kill kids with strays, they do use them to assault and kill the law abiding. so the law abiders should still have them. What I would prefer is that some teachers be armed and trained. If they were, I doubt he would've been able to dump over 100 rounds with no interference.
Thugs don't shoot up schools, so you're wrong. If he were Muslim (a religion) it wouldn't be far off to assume he might have had religious motive. I mean, a white guy shot up a Sikh temple and was labeled racist. Is that unfair? Honestly, mentally stable people don't do things like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emir Mehovic
This is not about race. This is not about gun control. This is about mental health and a horrible tragedy. We all need to control our knee jerk reactions, control our desire to blame everything, and just mourn. Lets wait for all the info to surface. Then we can talk about preventative measures.
For now just pray for the families. If that's not your thing, then just appreciate your life.
At first, my knee jerk reaction to this was that weapons bans need to be implemented.. but after a couple minutes of cooling my head, I came to the sanest conclusion I could.
1. This man is my age. a 20 yr old boy turned a young man decided that he hated something. or someone, and killed (27?) people, mostly children, to fuel his hatred. Whatever set this man off, I can tell you he certainly hated someone. Family? Friends? Himself? God? Society? We may never fully understand it... But the prognosis is simple... HATE.
2. This man (I call him this only because it gives me some basic moral right in my head to senselessly torture this evil human) committed said crime with 3 weapons, 2 pistols (Glock and Sauer) and had a hunting rifle .223 in his car. These are commonplace weapons, one of which is a popular hunting weapon (.223) and the others popular pistols for home defense (although the Sauer is a very small, concealable weapon when compared to other pistols, but I digress). There were also around 100 rounds fired more or less according to reports.
The above all leads to one conclusion in my head. I will caps lock my point to make it extra spicy.
BAN ASSAULT WEAPONS BY ALL MEANS... BUT NO SOLUTION TO GUN CONTROL WOULD HAVE STOPPED THIS SHOOTING.
This is an act of human tragedy. A Sociopathic, Evil, Fucked up man decided it was time to kill the most innocent people on the planet. Kindergartners. And then in a act of cowardice, he took his own as intended.
We should never ignore such things. This is a terrible reality. Society is breaking down. We will never understand why our human tendencies lead to such psychopaths. The only thing we can do is hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.
For those claiming that he still would've killed without a gun, yeah but not near as efficiently. Bombs aren't easy to make and he wouldn't have access to really poison them. Take for example the slaying in Casper College not too long ago, a guy killed his own father in class with a bow but was unable to kill anybody else. Still a tragedy, but much less of one than if he had a Glock and Sauer in the same situation.
Its a tough one, I own guns and my family owns a LOT of guns. I don't view guns as self defense though, mine are in a safe with trigger locks and unloaded with the ammunition locked seperately, because I don't want to be responsible for any theft or accidental shootings. Plus, almost everyone that owns CCW's are hobbyists at best when it comes to shooting, they ain't going to hit shit in a live fire situation.
it's simple math, if ther is a crowd of 100 people & you have 15 rounds in a handgun, you may kill 9 if your a good shot once people scatter. but if you have a 100 round Assault Rifle with 223's you can be half blind and kill 50 people. especially in tight spaces like movie theaters & class rooms. i've been at parties where whole crowds got shot at afterwards with hand guns & no one got hit. i don't know why the NRA & gun nuts just can't admit that Assault Rifle's are more dangerous
sad
Last time I felt like somthing just oculdnt be real, like this was 9/11.
On the gun control thing. Today in china there was another story, a guy slashed some kids and adults at a school with a razor kife. The news said gun laws are strict so knifes are the weapon of choice for violent crimes. I'm not making this up.
http://www.latimes.com/news/world/wo...,6383015.story
This ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff V
Jeff is 100 % correct. The problem we are facing is not one of gun control policy, the problem is with the extreme mental health issue we have in this country. As an EMT I've came across hundreds of mentally unstable people who are going completely untreated because they are uninsured. I have personally taken many diagnosed paranoid schizophrenics who were completely violent and delusional to the hospital for treatment only to see them back on the street a week later, still un-medicated and untreated. The simple fact of the matter is that banning weapons or blaming drugs (bath salt zombies), as we tend to try and do for these tragic events, is not going to help the problem. We need to address mental health in this country by educating the public to spot those with potential mental health issues and make access to treatment available to all who are in need of it. This would be a much greater benefit to our society, not just for preventing these violent acts but also in dealing with other mental issues affecting our country like suicide, depression, extreme anxiety, etc...
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
Bombs are easy to make. High tech bombs aren't easy, but improvised bombs are easy. Why do you think they're such a big problem in the middle east? And poison gas bombs are even easier to make. 2 liter bottle. Draino. Bleach. The killer used guns because they were the easiest. But as the article above explains, killer will kill no matter what. And when they want to kill a LOT of people, they'll figure that out too. Guns are simply tools. Can't blame the gun for the murder. Can't blame the car for the drunk driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray
Connecticut has an assault weapon ban. So if he had a magazine over 10 rounds, he violated the law. That means that gun control has nothing to do with this. Killers will find a way to kill. Bottom line.Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
Everybody I know is talkin' about is gun control laws, my question is when did CRIMINALS start following laws ? ? ? I thought that was the WHOLE point in being a criminal. And another problem is the media giving all the shine to the suspect instead of putting the spotlight on the victims of this horrific tragedy, This angers me because I work with elementry children and did not expect for it to affect me the way it did, ppl can't even go anywhere without lookin' over a shoulder anymore .
By an extension of your logic, all laws are superfluous because criminals don't follow laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Credible
The harder it is for society in general to own weapons the harder it will be for criminals to, since guns won't be everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Credible
Also a lot of pro gun defenders tend to separate people in two categories: law abiding citizens/Good people and criminals/evil people. They like this very black and white view of the world. We are all people, and people can be negligent, stupid, angry, crazy, sick, jealous, overconfident, drugged, drunk, make mistakes, etc... or in the case of this shooting have a son who takes your legally owned guns and kills all those kids and teachers. Criminals were law abiding citizens up to the point they committed a crime.
Just because killers will find a way to kill, let's not make it easy on them.
I do agree with you that the media should be more responsible the way they cover these stories.
I'm torn on the gun control issues.
I can't help but think that if that chinese guy had a gun, and not a knife, he would have killed more than 10 children. I know that he injured more than 20 kids. You can get a lot more done in shorter time with a few pistols than with a knife.
Maybe only allow non-automatic hunting rifles in the U.S.?
Seems reasonable. Non automatic shotguns and rifles are hunting tools. If that Chinese guy had a gun more kids would be dead for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hester
Seems reasonable. Non automatic shotguns and rifles are hunting tools. If that Chinese guy had a gun more kids would be dead for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hester
i used to believe in banning guns but i've changed my mind since getting to know pothead gun owners and banning guns is the same as censorship to me. i am so sorry about those kids and all the people who have died violently recently, not sure what else i can really say, it's sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff V
Maybe you're right? Or, on the other hand, had their gun laws permitted ccw, the killer could've been stopped before causing even more damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hester
I've been doing some research and it seems that a number of shooting sprees are cut short by armed civilians. I gotta do more research, but so far that seems to be the trend. And it would make sense. If nothing else, it would serve as a distraction to allow people to escape. Or it would make the assailant take cover and stop shooting.
So far I've found out about the Pearl High School shooting spree that was cut short by a principal who had a gun in his car, the Parker Middle School dance shooting that was cut short by the venue owner, and the Trolley Square Mall shooting where an off duty outside of his jurisdiction pinned the shooter down with fire from his personal carry firearms until swat arrived.
These are only 3 incidents and I'm still reading about more. The massive tragedies we hear about continue due to no resistance. The ones met with resistance are cut short. And since the body count isn't big, the news barely covers them. I can get all conspiracy theorist on you guys, but I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
How about instead of stopping the shooter with a gun after he already shot and killed several people, we lower as much as we can the probabilities of the shooting happening in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
If you have more people with guns even if you cut short some shootings i believe there will also be more shootings, so in the end more people will be dead.
Also i believe that in the majority of situations having lots of people carrying guns besides the shooter will lead to more people being killed due to confusion about who was the original shooter ( so they would start shooting themselves thinking they were shooting the original shooter), there would be more bullets flying through the air which means more innocents would be killed, the cops themselves would be more nervous and shoot first and ask questions later since themselves can't know who from all the people shooting is the original shooter,etc...
These shootings are chaotic events and adding more guns to the mix i believe would do much more harm than good.
You talk about conspiracies as do others, but how about the big conspiracy? making tons of money selling guns. Money, it's always the money. Please make sure to check where you get your facts from and see if the authors aren't making money of all this.
I can see where you're coming from. But it's an assumption, and it's like you're still blaming guns for mass killings. The root of the violence is that people want to hurt others. Are there mass stabbings in the US? No? then why would you believe that we'd have more mass shootings? That makes no sense. Listen, I'd love to live in a gun free world. But since we don't, it makes no sense to neuter responsible citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spínola
Statistics prove you wrong. Stats show that armed citizens end shooting sprees faster than the police.Quote:
Also i believe that in the majority of situations having lots of people carrying guns besides the shooter will lead to more people being killed due to confusion about who was the original shooter ( so they would start shooting themselves thinking they were shooting the original shooter), there would be more bullets flying through the air which means more innocents would be killed, the cops themselves would be more nervous and shoot first and ask questions later since themselves can't know who from all the people shooting is the original shooter,etc...
Making money selling guns is not the big conspiracy. Hhahahaah. Oil is much bigger. The military industrial complex is a way bigger conspiracy contributor. Civilian carry is not a conspiracy to make money. And what if someone is making money off of it? Does it make it less factual? Do sellers of medicinal herbs not make money? Do educators not make money? I understand your knee jerk reaction, but you're looking in the wrong place for the problem. People are the problem. Not tools.Quote:
You talk about conspiracies as do others, but how about the big conspiracy? making tons of money selling guns. Money, it's always the money. Please make sure to check where you get your facts from and see if the authors aren't making money of all this.
I don't understand what your point is here. Even though there are more knives than guns doing mass murder with guns is way easier, and the more guns there are the higher the chances your loved ones will be caught in one.Quote:
I can see where you're coming from. But it's an assumption, and it's like you're still blaming guns for mass killings. The root of the violence is that people want to hurt others. Are there mass stabbings in the US? No? then why would you believe that we'd have more mass shootings? That makes no sense.
That's not possible, but you can have a society were guns are rare and very hard to get.Quote:
Listen, I'd love to live in a gun free world.
Here we go again, with the black and white view of the world...Quote:
But since we don't, it makes no sense to neuter responsible citizens.
I wonder were you got those statistics from... but let's suppose they are true, you have to bear in mind that those cases only one person had a gun, not everybody had one. Do you believe that in the aurora theater shooting if several people had guns in the audience less people would have died?Quote:
Statistics prove you wrong. Stats show that armed citizens end shooting sprees faster than the police.
When i was talking about conspiracy i was talking only in the universe of gun control conspiracies. People who mention all the gun control conspiracies always fail to mention that there are a lot of people making huge tons of money selling guns. Did the places were you got your statistics from showed the ones about how much gun sales increase after these kinds of violence acts occur? The more fear the more guns they sell!Quote:
Making money selling guns is not the big conspiracy. Hhahahaah. Oil is much bigger. The military industrial complex is a way bigger conspiracy contributor. Civilian carry is not a conspiracy to make money. And what if someone is making money off of it?
Please don't insult me, give me the same courtesy i am giving you. My views are based on a lot of time researching and trying to learn as much as i can on the issue. Just because i have a different view from yours don't assume it is a "knee jerk reaction".Quote:
I understand your knee jerk reaction
Guns are tools for killing so please stop comparing them to cars and other examples like that. They are not equivalent, it is not a fair comparison.Quote:
but you're looking in the wrong place for the problem. People are the problem. Not tools.
Of course people are the problem. I thought i was pretty clear about that when i said before: "We are all people, and people can be negligent, stupid, angry, crazy, sick, jealous, overconfident, drugged, drunk, make mistakes, etc... "
That is why i want to make it has hard as possible for them to get guns.