Finishing arm triangle from kesa gatame OK?

The thread on Ryan Hall's arm triangle DVD got me thinking ab how I've been finishing my own arm triangles lately. It wasn't a move that I had a ton of success with until I recently saw a video clip where Erik Paulson finished from kesa gatame instead of the standard flat on your stomach finish I usually see. So I figured I'd check in w/the forum for reasons why it's not generally taught from kesa. Any big disadvantages? I'm not a big guy and I've found that I've haven't had to make as many adjustments to get the tap as I did from the standard position. Thoughts?

ryan halls method is down to a T. his arm triangle method i would say is the best. because he describes in great detail how weight distribution is more important than squeezing your ass off. Its about putting pressure on both sides of the neck via the arm and pushing the shoulder into the neck. as far as kesa gatame is concerned i think (and probably Ryan thinks too) is that it would work if you can eliminate space and cut off both arteries. i haven't tried this yet though.

Knee on the belly, figure foured arms is the best, trust me :-)

I wonder the same myself. Can't remember where I saw it first but I finish in kesa gatame 90% of the time now. I can play around flat, knee on belly etc & sometimes get the tap, but when switching through to kesa the tap comes instantly.

There must be some negative to it cause as you said I rarely see it taught that way and obviously I'm doing something a little off in the other positions to finish but if its comp time I'm going straight to the kesa finish.

Would love to hear from the more knowledgable the negatives to it.

I've switched to the Ryan Hall method and I already had a good arm triangle. It really works amazing. Worth trying if you haven't before, takes way less energy and you can execute it on any sized guy no matter how roided up or pencil necked they are.

I've been all around the world on this tech as well and it probably has the biggest variant on preferences to finish. So many ways to finish and many are effective.

Eddie made a point last seminar that is impossible to argue with. What's the only way to finish an arm tri from the bottom? Figure four. Why? Because its the tightest and the strongest. You sure as hell ain't gonna finish one handed. Anyway, the same principles apply to top as well. Except now you got your boy gravity backin you up as well. He's right. Just makes sense.

Rafael Mendes does a figure 4 grip, puts the hand on the forehead, than sits up to the side and cranks down on the forehead to add a crank while squeezing and twisting

Eddie's cranks the shit out of ya too. The knee on belly is turning your lower body one way while he's squeezing the other. It sux.

So for what I'm reading, esp those who advocate going knee on belly for the finish, I'm assuming that finishing in kesa is fine so long as the basic principle of closing off both arteries is still in play. From checking online, it looks like judo players finish the choke in kesa because they also use the position to apply downward compression on the opponent's chest to double the effectiveness... in of in the same way knee on belly obstructs breathing while the blood choke is kicking in. I agree w/the figure 4 arm position. It's way tighter/more secure

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

Knee on the belly, figure foured arms is the best, trust me :-)

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I do it this way and I put dudes to sleep all the time (a lot of people at my gym are stubborn, haha) I think this Eddie guy might be on to something!

Don't forget that in Judo, you don't need the tap to win when you pin your opponent to the ground. You just need to hold him in side control or mount for 25 seconds. That may be a reason why Judo fighters don't use figure-four - they just need the control position, no need to finish the fight.
And yeah, figure four + knee on the belly is a killer!

The main reason in why you see it done in Judo from a Kesa Gatame position or Kata Gatame postion (on the knee next to the hip), is to maintain the hold down/pin. It has nothing to do with the arm position (Figure four vs Gable Grip). It's about maintaining chest contact. If you are knee on the belly it negates the hold down.

You can finish the arm triangle from the bottom using the ryan hall method. You can't one arm it but gable or three finger grip with lockdown makes for a very hard crank/twist/choke.

^On who?

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

^On who?

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On whoever is stock in Mike armtriangle. Trust me!

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

^On who?

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On whoever. I don't see why you think you need the figure four from your back. The guy's not going anywhere once you have a hold of his head and arm.

I find it hard to tap guys with big shoulders and arms with the figure four. Tougher guys just hold out and it exhausts my arms, I don't get a good angle for choking. By turning my far peck into his arm it creates a much better angle and purer choke. To me this especially applies when I'm on my back because you don't have the knee on belly for leverage/to create the crank.

Just my personal preference though.

As long as you're not toolin a bunch of lower belts:) Your school is a good enough voucher for me.

This is what I was sayin. So many preferences. My gym owner loves this sub and he swears by the gable grip(top). I've had a lot of success with this as well and if it's workin for ya do your thang. I've found the opposite though, bigger shoulders just means a bigger cushion fill in the gaps, making the choke tighter. And the debate continues.

This is my best submission by far. Not even close.

Here's my take: figure 4 is the best grip for the kill. But the grip is so strong that it doesn't help you understand the mechanics of the choke as well as it should. In theory, I should (and I very regularly do) finish this choke without engaging my outside arm. This teaches me to position my inside shoulder properly and to drive my weight at the proper angle. And it forces me to retreat with my upper body to find the proper entry position for my inside shoulder.

Lay your belly on the mat and gable grip until you learn to make the kill with ZERO squeeze. Now you can add the figure 4 grip and the knee on the belly and it's instant death.

One of these days I'll get my Brown Belt and trying to explain things on the forum will be much easier. :)

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Originally Posted by MikeW

On whoever. I don't see why you think you need the figure four from your back. The guy's not going anywhere once you have a hold of his head and arm.

I find it hard to tap guys with big shoulders and arms with the figure four. Tougher guys just hold out and it exhausts my arms, I don't get a good angle for choking. By turning my far peck into his arm it creates a much better angle and purer choke. To me this especially applies when I'm on my back because you don't have the knee on belly for leverage/to create the crank.

Just my personal preference though.

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I'm willing to bet that it isn't your grip that's making the kill; it's the angle.

If you're getting finishes from the bottom without the figure 4 you're getting your hip on the ground and forcing driving pressure with your inside shoulder.

If you try to finish the arm triangle from bottom half guard while you're flat on your back the ONLY way you're gonna pull it off is with the figure 4 grip (and probably the lockdown as well).

Eddie's argument (which is apparently shared by the Mendes Brothers) is that if only the Figure 4 will work from an inferior position, then it is clearly the superior grip to use in a superior position. I agree.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren

I'm willing to bet that it isn't your grip that's making the kill; it's the angle.

If you're getting finishes from the bottom without the figure 4 you're getting your hip on the ground and forcing driving pressure with your inside shoulder.

If you try to finish the arm triangle from bottom half guard while you're flat on your back the ONLY way you're gonna pull it off is with the figure 4 grip (and probably the lockdown as well).

Eddie's argument (which is apparently shared by the Mendes Brothers) is that if only the Figure 4 will work from an inferior position, then it is clearly the superior grip to use in a superior position. I agree.

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Me and Rafa on the same page about the figure 4 grip? Nice! link to the interview?

It's simple, the gable grip version won't work when you are on bottom, only the figure 4 grip will. Now, think about what grip is best on top. You can do it, think. I've been doing arm triangles for over 15 years, that's my shit. I hit them from the bottom on the regular, I only use figure 4 grip plus the lockdown is crucial as well from the bottom :)

Its not an interview, he shows the technique on Mendes brothers online, but like I said, he gets the figure four than sits up to the side and cranks down on there forehead while squeezing and twisting

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

Its not an interview, he shows the technique on Mendes brothers online, but like I said, he gets the figure four than sits up to the side and cranks down on there forehead while squeezing and twisting

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Yeah, he also prefers to chair sit to the back while doing it, so it's almost like a no-gi version of the arm-in ezekiel choke, and it ends up being a little more like that (or an arm-in RNC if that helps) than an arm triangle, although he definitely still uses the figure-4 from the top to finish as well.

Ryan's position is pretty nuanced, that you should be able to choke people with arm-in chokes (arm triangles, darces, anacondas, ezekiels, etc) without using a squeeze, and that proper limb placement and simply holding the position should be what puts the opponent to sleep. He obviously also stresses that when you're going for real, you should try to tear their head off, and he will try to rip your head clean off, but that a hard squeeze should never be a substitute for perfect technique.

Rafa's position on blood chokes is a little more "rough and tough" for lack of a better word. I've trained with him on some no-gi chokes, and he is very open about doing chokes in a specific way so that they cause a lot of pain and discomfort on top of the choke. The arm triangle video on their site that you saw is a good example of that, as is a cool RNC and a cool anaconda variation that he has for each that cause a ton of pain.

Jiu-Jitsu is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

Me and Rafa on the same page about the figure 4 grip? Nice! link to the interview?

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I wish it was in an interview. it's from a video on their training site. i can give you a screen shot and a video clip though.

Screenshot: Attachment 1806

Video:

Skip to 45 seconds in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1dApmujScM