Tap early Tap often or know your limits?

Wondering how you guys feel about in the situation of being submitted.

IE: if a guy has you in a guillotine or rear naked, do you tap when they get good pressure or when you feel you should?


reason asking, is because im not fully sure if im in the wrong for doing it.
Im not big and stocky, but im of an athletic build and have alot of agility and resistance.

for some reason, unsure if its because I dont exactly have a neck or if they arent squeezing hard enough. or maybe its a physical build thing or just my individual resistance.

I posted that I had an awesome training day and held my own against one of our guys thats about to get his blue belt in BJJ and i'm only white 1 stripe. (quick learner)
I about caught him in an oma plata but he quickly hugged the back of my leg and it was hard ot pull it back out. and I also came close to locking a triangle on him but he postured up and reversed out. after a min or two, he got me in a head and arm choke and was squeezing really hard.

(in my opinion, If i can hold out, I'll resist because when the opponent squeezes full force, in theory they can only hold the full squeeze for about 30 or so seconds before they start to let up a little form acid build up and tiredness.)

so while he squeezes, ya i feel the pressure, but its not really anythign thats making me uncomfortable,dizzy, or signs of blood loss to my head. so I crawl to mount and wait.... just as suspected he slowly started losing pressure and I blasted and made my escape.

but my friends dad thinks its more or less, "I have something to prove" and said I should just tap if I get stuck or caught and reset and roll again.

I'm 19 only weigh about 140-145 (soccer does that do you lol) and im one of the lightest guys in our school for the adult class the closes person to me in weight has about 20 lbs on me, every one else is 175+

I have alot of fight and heart to keep going, cardio is well above average, but not once have I ever in my mind thought that I need to prove myself to anyone at the school. JJ/BJJ is a constant never ending road of Progress, every real BJJ/JJ practitioner will tell you that. we've all be white belts at one time, lost alot, got swept and tapped alot, but each of us know our limits and learn everyday.


so it boils down to,
Should I just tap and reset though I dont feel any pressure or danger?
Or is it perfectly fine to hold out and resist given that I know my limits and when I KNOW I need to tap.

How much training value do you get from being stuck in one spot for 2-3 mins?

I think if a choke isnt set, there is no issue with holding out, but dont fool yourself, its not you doing anything special, the guy doing the choke was just doing it wrong, and its more valuable IMO, to be able to change the position (or not ever get stuck there), than go get choked out/not choked out because the guy messed up a choke. You get no further development from staying in one spot holding out. I would say the 2-3 mins is better spent practicing and transitioning than laying in one spot. Just my opinion though.

ya I definately understand and fully agree that the 1 min sitting there could be used more efficiantly, though at the same time, what do you do in a tournament situation if you are unsure of your limits. I've seen some guys that are very good, but the second the guy gets caught and pressure if applied, they panic and tap right away.

when I got caught in the head and arm, I resisted and shrimped my chin in so he didnt have a direct line to my neck. though he kept squeezing I felt no threat or danger so i just held out for about 30seconds and when he let up I took advantage of the opening.

Well to be honest, I dont see where the two things have anything to do with one another. A guy, if he really is good, knows when he is caught. In your case, you simply were not in a choke. That has zero to do with what you were asking. If a guy who knew how to finish better puts you in the same spot, you get tapped. So what is more important, laying under a guy who isnt choking you, or not getting put there in the first place? I would say avoiding the situation. lots of new guys get "fooled" into thinking some things are alot safer than they think they are because of blue belts fooking up submissions. Get with a better guy, and you see avoiding the position was a much better use of time.

Its your time, use it as you will, and it usually takes most guys 2-3 years to use their grappling time the most efficiently anyway.

if I know that I can hold out against the choke I will try to out last him but as soon as I feel the blood leaving and I don't sense him giving up I will tap. Armbars and other submissions like that I will tap as soon as im caught because I dont want to lose a limb. It helps me train not to get caught in those submissions.

chokes, I'll usually tap when I know it's sunk in or feel myself going out. heel hook, or knee attacks I'll usually tap fairly quickly if they have it sunk in. Same thing with armbars, really. Once I feel the pressure and I haven't begun to roll out, or spin out, I'll tap. Not worth getting hurt over. my LCL is bugging me quite a bit and it kills me not to be near 100%.

This reminded me of when I joined a grappling club with all these 200 pound plus dudes, and I'm currently 160. These guys would always pressure me and get the head and arm triangle on me and I'd be resisting and making them work for it forever and then I realized that I wasted a lot of energy and I had another 7 opponents to go against directly after that. So I'd say it's good to just tap, they out classed you and got the submission. Might as well start over. But if you feel you can get out of it, just keep working. I will always work for about 20 seconds in any hold if I can. If I can't break out after that I'll just tap either way. But you should let your partners know their chokes aren't really working to well.

well I mean, in sparring with a team mate, ya tap and reset to train more. but in s tournament I think i'd hold out as long as I can. though arm bars i'll tap quickly because I dont want to injure myself. i'll attemt to roll out of the arm bar but if I dont grab it first try, its pretty much done and I'll tap.

If a guy is stronger than me, then gassing him out is a key part to my strategy. If he is blowing a submission and I can find a safe spot to wait, I'll let him squeeze his brains out until I can find an opening.

I didn't read everyone's response, but i'm the same way as you. Once i started to roll a lot, i learned my limits and i push them for sure. I never tap early even though i know i should, unless its an armbar or something with ankles. I ended up getting choked out from an arm triangle once tho but that wasn't bc i didn't tap right away, but because he was strong as hell and locked it in perfect. As soon as he had it in, i was out. Anyways, im just like you but we should both be a little smarter i think lol

I say hold out, your not helping your training partner if your tapping when your not in the choke properly. It will help him to relise what he has to do in a real situation to choke someone out. Limb locks are a bit different, i always apply them slowly, even though i shouldn't, just in case some one gets hurt. I personally don't mind if he escpes, it helps me work on my control in the submission.

Last lesson I had a judo brown belt with a good 20lbs on me arm bar, he nearly snapped my arm off(or so it felt,) which i personally thought was a bit of a douche move. I also find I tapp too quickly when i'm very tired, which again isn't helping your partners technique.

know your limits is the right way to go. If you end up doing competition and somebody puts you in a submission your not gonna tap right away. Now if you have an injury or it's the day before a competition I would suggest tapping right away to reset just to avoid a new or further injury. In the end should just go out there and test your limits you need to know your pain threshold. Once a limb starts to hurt or you get dizzy tap but try to remember how long it took for you to tap or how much pain you felt before tapping, this will help you when it comes competition time

If someone has me in an armbar and I cant defend it, of course I'll tap before it messes my arm up. However, if someone is choking me, I'll do everything I can to escape before I tap, even if it's completely on.

Yeah Chokes are safe to wait out if you can some space or maybe a hand blocking it. I've had my knee reaped with heel hook a few years back and thats made me real cautious with any heel hooks/figure fours. Sometimes I think I might of tapped too early but better to restart than to have to rehab said knee right?

I think it totally depends on what submission you're caught in. Personally, if I'm in a guillotine, as soon as they start to crank i tap... that's one submission that has JACKED my neck in training before and that is noooo fun. But RNCs I usually try to fight it out till I start to see black. Joint locks are trickier, just gotta pray you're rolling with someone who knows what they're doing.

You are not doing your partner any favors by tapping when he doesn't have the submission. He will think he's doing it right when he obviously isn't. It's not a matter of being tough and hard to choke. It's a matter of having the hold properly. If its an armbar or ankle lock, I'll tap as soon as I realize I can't pull out of it. If its a choke, I'll hold out. If I have a choke on someone, and I'm squeezing in one position for more than 15 or so seconds, I'll try to change positions. If after awhile, I still can't get it, I'll ask my partner. He's in the best position to tell me if its a bad angle, if I'm on the jaw, etc. We are all here to learn, not to show how bad we are.

I tap early on everything but chokes and pain moves. Some chokes take a little bit to take effect, same with pain moves, so you have some time to adjust and escape, but joint locks can hurt you in a hurry. If you're not competing, just tap if you're in a joint lock. What's the point, I mean you're risking real injury. That goes for every single joint in your body.

my first tournament is comming up, and my view on it is, in spar training, as long as you are aware of your abilities and limits, test yourself and hold out, but with a joint lock, dont chance it much if not at all.

holding out for afew seconds and your opponent letting up could mean be the few seconds of placing 1st or just advancing.

I don't think there is one correct answer to this... my general rule of thumb is to wait as long as possible with chokes and to tap early to joint locks (unless it isn't in well or I trust my training partner enough to try the escape). So the caveat to this is that if you ever want to see higher level transitions, you have to defend the first attack. The swim move doesn't work unless you defend the belly down armbar. The pump and dump never happens if a pump and armbar from guard happens. Also, If you tap to a shitty arm triangle, your partner will think it's a good arm triangle...

i fight off chokes... but if anyone grabs a heel with a bit of pressure im tapping

I think you should hold out on chokes as long as you can. Armbars/leglocks are a different story because that can cause serious limb damage if you hold out. If a guy doesn't have a choke in all the way I will sit in it and try to think my way out. That way I get used to finding my way out of desperate spots (like any Kevin Green rolling session) and he gets used to choking people right. Everybody wins. With armbars/leglocks, it's pretty obvious when you're caught so I tend to tap when I know there's no way out.

I'm not a big believer in tapping early to save energy for later rolling sessions because you should be rolling tired to get used to the feeling of thinking when you are exhausted. I guess the theme is that knowing how to figure out how to escape desperate spots is an important skill to learn, particularly if escaping will leave you in a better position. I think it's just as important as knowing how to choke/arm/legbar correctly.

Check out the Sub 101 video with Keith Owen describing his journey to black and injury prevention. Good video. I believe in pushing yourself but from experience/injury sometimes the damage gets done while testing your limits.

wise words from a great teacher...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JsEOI5sLRM

When it comes to tapping its different for everyone due to ego's ect. I personally think every tap takes you one step closer to Black Belt if you learn from the mistake. However, tapping when you have no reason to tap is not helpful to yourself or your partner. They need to learn how to correctly apply the technique to force the tap. If they are not don't tap and finish your roll. Afterwards explain to them why you didn't tap so they can fix it.

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Originally Posted by Victor Tabeling

I think you should hold out on chokes as long as you can. Armbars/leglocks are a different story because that can cause serious limb damage if you hold out. If a guy doesn't have a choke in all the way I will sit in it and try to think my way out. That way I get used to finding my way out of desperate spots (like any Kevin Green rolling session) and he gets used to choking people right. Everybody wins. With armbars/leglocks, it's pretty obvious when you're caught so I tend to tap when I know there's no way out.

I'm not a big believer in tapping early to save energy for later rolling sessions because you should be rolling tired to get used to the feeling of thinking when you are exhausted. I guess the theme is that knowing how to figure out how to escape desperate spots is an important skill to learn, particularly if escaping will leave you in a better position. I think it's just as important as knowing how to choke/arm/legbar correctly.

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Well said Vic :) Well said...

I think there is some degree of merit to holding out on chokes because it raises your blood choke endurance. Farmer Burns blood choke endurance was so high that no man could choke him out. Hell, no person could linch him and kill him. Dude went to carnivals and hung from a noose for thirty minutes.

Oh and what about this guy?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OBZxdvx8wk

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

If a guy is stronger than me, then gassing him out is a key part to my strategy. If he is blowing a submission and I can find a safe spot to wait, I'll let him squeeze his brains out until I can find an opening.

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I thought this was sound tactics? I do this too. I know its not a competition, but if your a whitebelt and not very strong, why not let the playing field even a little? Im sure the other person learns from it too.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

I think there is some degree of merit to holding out on chokes because it raises your blood choke endurance. Farmer Burns blood choke endurance was so high that no man could choke him out. Hell, no person could linch him and kill him. Dude went to carnivals and hung from a noose for thirty minutes.

Oh and what about this guy?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OBZxdvx8wk

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Cant of been much of a noose. Choke endurance wont teach your brain to work without oxygen.

In my opinion you are doing that right thing by not tapping out early to chokes. If you are able to defend it enough so you aren't really getting choked hard and your neck isn't getting cranked try to escape. If you tap in these situations you are doing a disservice to yourself, because you don't get practice escaping from tough situations, and to your training partner because he is going to think he had the choke applied properly when in all likelihood he did not. I am more conservative with joint locks because they can lead to more severe injuries, but still fight out of them if I can. With more mat time you will learn to know when you are really caught and when you can get out of a submission.