I've trained at a few BJJ schools and the only school that trained with them was a JKD school, wouldn't it make sense to include them once in a while in training?
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I've trained at a few BJJ schools and the only school that trained with them was a JKD school, wouldn't it make sense to include them once in a while in training?
So you actually want a bunch of dudes practicing grabbing your nuts?
As long as their hands are nice and soft I wouldn't mind, I might even enjoy it.
Grabbing hard around the area would work, and scratching above the eyes would work for eye gouges.
Why not train and stab each other and blow your friends head off when he attempts a take down?Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
I hear dawn dish soap makes hands nice and soft.
We're starting rape offense classes soon.
Know about it.
And training eye gouges is like training small joint manipulations...don't know that there's a lot of technique involved (sorry small circle jits guys). You just take your fingers, and stick them in someones eyeballs...you just grab a finger, and bend it the wrong way until it breaks.
You just kidnap a stripper, go to a densely woo...sorry i blacked out there for a second.
Things like that cannot be practiced in real time. They can only be done with fake gestures or soft strikes relegating them to fight theory rather than any technique that can be drilled in live rolling. Additionally, all dirty strikes are still subject to the rules of dominant position just like any other strike. If I mount a dirty fighter and he reaches down for a groin grab, I can more easily gouge his eyes out.
Personally, I don't see the value in training a dirty tactic that can only be trained within the confines of a preplanned drill or one step. I mean take any standard BJJ move for example. There is a drastic difference between a drilled arm bar and a live dynamic arm bar in a live rolling session that must adapt to the ever changing situation. Drills make up the pieces that we put together as a puzzle during live rolling.
If I drilled dirty tactics would they effectively carry over into their first use in a dynamic and live self defense situation? I don't know.
It sure can be practiced in a live rolling situation, just include scratching above the eyes to simulate eye gouging. The whole grappling game changes when you know if you go for a double leg you'll have a thumb thrust deep in your eye socket, same goes for certain guard passes, side control positions, sweeps, half guard, etc...
I think if you haven't grappled like this you aren't prepared for a real fight.
BJJ is a sport, with rules, that don't allow eye gouging.
If you are interested in that, you should take something like Hagannah. It teaches all kinds of evil stuff, one of the concepts are that you need to end fights because you assume you can't escape, so the three choices are: subdue (mainly for law enforcement, not recommended), immobilize (techniques for breaking ankles and back mostly), and death (some cool techniques for twisting a guys skull off the top of their spine).
There is a whole ground portion to the system, but the idea is that you want to be on your feet, the ground stuff is really ways to hurt someone quickly so that you can get back up on your feet. There are some of what you'd call submissions, but they don't teach to submit. I believe the term is that 'if they tap, it means you are doing something right, so keep going'.
Also, there is technique for eye-gouging.... it's referred to as 'going bowling', if you stick your finger in an eye, you have to push it all the way in like you'd do for a bowling ball. It also advises against biting because of disease, but the general rule is that if you bite, you need to keep going until your teeth touch. Otherwise, you aren't doing any real harm and only playing around.
That being said, whenever you learn a self defense system, the limitation is that you can't practice at 100% because you will run out of partners. This is one reason I've switched to BJJ. I can have fun and I can actually use what I've learned on a daily basis. Plus, I like the sport part of it.
I think you are as prepared as if you dont say, practice throws on concrete. If someone tries to poke me in the eye on a double, they get rotated onto their head on the asphalt.Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
Eye gouging, biting, etc, can of course turn a fight, but they cut both ways, and if one person has a dominant position, all that stuff gets done on their terms. Truthfully a guy biting me while I side control him isnt going to do anything but let him end up toothless. Eye gouging is the only thing that can really make things change, and if this is your "secret weapon" you are a fool.
See.. simulated. You are not practicing eye gouging, you are literally practicing how to scratch someone's eyebrow. Again, you seem to go off of the premise that these dirty tactics will only belong to you. How about a double leg with a ball sack bite.. eye gouge that. Ridiculous but my point is, that if a fight is dirty, the dirty tactics are not exclusive to the dirty fighter. Even with dirty tactics, the advantage is still granted to the person in a superior position.Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
This reiterates my other point.. all of this discussion exists in the realm of "what if". Here we are going back and forth with theoretical dirty tactics that we can't literally drill live or prove on the mats. Everything I do on the mats, is validated and proven as being effective everyday I train. I value that way more than obscure advice on how to bite through someone's arm from somebody who has never bitten through someone's arm.
Are dirty tactics effective.. I'd imagine so. How effective? I have no clue.
Because then it wouldn't be a bjj class, it would be a self-defense class. Take krav maga instead.
Thats like a douchebag in an affliction shirt saying "all you gotta do is grab an arm and pull and its an armbar". I agree with you that YOU "don't know" there is a lot of technique involved. You should go ahead and educate yourself on some real shit homie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Palmer
why not practice stabbing people.
Please try to double leg me while trying to bite my ball sac, you'd be doing me a favor on many levels. I do agree the dirty tactics do favor the one in the superior position but if he never trained with them, he won't be prepared for the sight ending thumb in the eye when he has side control.
And one of my teachers once said think of the mats as concrete, then you'll be prepared when it is.
Krav maga is poor man's grappling with poor man's kickboxing combined with the better gun and knife disarms. They dont spend a ton of time defending Eye gouges, for largely the same reason no one else does, if you put other, serious offense on an attacker, he will be too busy thinking about his bleeding head to bother poking at your peepers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Daly
Haganah (Hebrew: "The Defense", ההגנה HaHagana) was a Jewish paramilitary organization in what was then the British Mandate of Palestine from 1920 to 1948, which later became the core of the Israel Defense Forces.
Just sayin'.....
You should train at Gene Lebell's school. Buy his books and DVD's. That man knows how to play it dirty, but is also an amazing grappler. There are a lot of "dirty" moves out there, but all is fair in a fight. It's just some moves are more practical than others. Groin attacks and shots to the neck/throat are going to be your best bet and you can drill those with a cup on and a throat guard. Wear eye goggles if you want to strike the eyes. Some places do train these, but most places are more concerned with you learning all the other stuff. You just need to ask your instructor if the tech you are learning is a sport tech or street.
Example, someone attempts to tackle me in a bar from the front. I sprawl out. I then throw knees into the top of his head. Fight over. while throwing the knees i hold him down by his ears or hair. Have i trained this 100%, no. But i got the concept pretty fast. Also I tackle someone and they know some BJJ and pull guard. I pass there guard by grabbing there wrist and Headbutting the guy. I then go to half-guard driving my knee into his crotch. If he is still fighting. I grab his hair or ear, pulling his head back and strike with downward elbows. or i push his head down and strike him in the side of the neck. all things i need a dominate position for which i would use my traditional BJJ for and all stuff i have never done 100%, but i understand the concept.
This is a ridiculous thread.
I would disagree with you somewhat aj. Ive trained parker system kenpo for on and off for ten years, and we do drills where we do what Ed Parker called "carrying on a conversation" which basically meant that we practiced striking on a control level that you and your partner felt comfortable with. higher belts were encouraged to talk louder than lower belts, which meant you struck harder and faster. eye gouges were simulated through open palm strikes to the forehead, but considering that everyone was supposed to be wearing cups, groin shots were delivered lightly to the groin (sometimes harder, lol), but at the end of the day, our focus was on target awareness and ability to control our striking at a level necessary for the situation. As I have taught my students over the years, does it make my technique less effective because I can control my speed and striking as I wish, or would I be better if I hit hard and uncontrolled. And I agree that grappling is certainly different in real fight situations than in the gym. So I give "lost" some credit for thinking beyond the gym and realizing that one day he may be in fight for his life and those dirty fighting techniques might make the difference of whether he lives or dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Camacho
It's basic self defense, I think what is ridiculous is a BJJ black belt having to wear a patch over his eye for the rest of his life because he was eye gouged by someone with no martial arts experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Blankenship
On the flip side, if I was in a fight for my life eye gouging would be my go to move, not the facialplata.
You just basically admitted that there is no "technique" involved. If there is no technique, then I would think there is no need to drill it?Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
I think the thread has a winner.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Palmer
Just grapple like I said and see how often you can be eye gouged, a lot of positions, takedowns, and guard passes aren't ones you'd want to use in a real fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Palmer
stlnl, there are NO winners in this thread.
And lost, in my younger days I was subject to get into a lot of fights outside the ring, I have definitely put Jiu Jitsu to the test in the street. Some things work, and some dont. Chokes are money, kimuras, and anything that lands you on top are ok, however, armbars and anything from your back (when there are multiple opponents, which there always seems to be, even if you don't know it at first) are a good way to learn the hard way. And frankly, unless i'm in a life or death situation, i'm not going to bite, eye gouge, fishhook, or anthing else like that. I'd rather get some bumps & bruises than take the chance of hurting someone so bad I have to do ANY time for it or lose my job or security clearance.
I mean, I almost always carry a knife, and have been in many fights, sometimes outnumbered, while carrying that knife. But at no time did i think that my life was in danger so the knife stayed put as it should have. There are VERY FEW instances that a person will run into that there will be need for "deadly force", and if thats a prime concern, I would suggest purchasing a handgun.
Also, an apple a day is a good policy.
Trust me the odds are against the guy trying to poke eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
I used to train in traditional martial arts. We had all kinds of little drills for throat chopping, eye gouging, and sack punching. Years of training that stuff never gave me a real sense of confidence that I could somehow turn on that "switch" and become a lethal ball tearing face biting machine. Training in grappling now, there is no switch. It's just always on. If some hobo tried to tackle me I'd more than likely laugh and sprawl his head into the concrete without even giving it a thought.
If your techniques work for you, that's awesome. And I'm not even here to say that such techniques are nonsense. My only point is that real time, 100%, full speed sparring/rolling gives a sense of acclimation and awareness that cannot be replicated in drills, one steps, or simulated attacks. This to me is one of the greatest assets of jiujitsu and back to the OP's original question, is why moves that cannot be sparred at 100% can be omitted from the lexicon.
I don't see why this is such a big deal, isn't one reason we train armbars is to keep from getting our arms broken in a fight. Shouldn't we also train eye gouges for the same reason? Wouldn't you feel horrible if a student of yours went into a fight against a superior striker, went for a takedown and ended up blinded for the rest of his life.
AJ, a simple scratch above the eye while I'm grappling 100% will show me something in the end, it doesn't need to end the match but it'll give me something to think about.
Wear a cup, sunglasses and toughen your skin up so its bite proof by rolling around naked on a pile of bricks every day all day. Hope this helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
Sounds like fun, when do we start?
Again, you are literally just practicing how to scratch people in the face. As for something to think about... I guess? I don't know if it would or wouldn't and on whom? That's my point, it's all theory. People aren't losing eyeballs in your JKD class and I doubt your coach has a collection of lacquered eyeballs under glass in his study.Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
I mean you guys aren't even practicing on pig heads to dial in your eye scooping technique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
Your reasoning is backwards. "went for a takedown and ended up blinded" is about as goofy as can be. We train to get into positions where we dont get gouged too easy, but fact is, anyone who wants to put fingers to your eyes, can do so. Closing them is the only real response, in real time, against a determined gouge. Now, of course if I put a guy in total holddown his ass wont gouge a thing. Same deal if I am mounted, any attempt at a gouge will make my dance partner toothless, and armless.
Just not too many spots a guy can gouge me in, especially, an untrained guy. Not many that I am going to be in with a "life and death" situation looming. Because most of the postions I will be in will be me standing, over the dude I threw on his head, soccer kicking him.
By the way, I dont practice curb stomping either, perhaps I should?
Brandon makes a good point... if you live in a place where there is legitimate street violence or you put yourself in situations where you could be required to use truly debilitating attacks, then you should probably just carry a weapon. Eye gouges, biting, and groin grabs are worthless against a knife. A knife is worthless against a gun. A single shot pistol is relatively worthless against an AK47. And an AK47 won't do shit for you against a grenade. BJJ is a sport, and training is usually tailored to the rules of the sport. Maybe BJJ isn't the martial art you should be training? ...just my 2 cents.
I think it's pretty easy to tell who has been in a fight in this thread and who hasn't.
Lost, a friend of mine made the exact same arguments as you. "I could gouge out your eyes from inside your guard!" So I let him in my guard....and put my hands over my eyes. After I got done laughing (I amused myself), I put him in a triangle instantaneously. He still thinks that he could eye gouge me "somehow".
You're the first guy I've heard of who is going to gouge someone mid shoot. Try and eye gouge a D1 Wrestler as he's shooting in on you. I'll meet you in your hospital bed to hear about it.
Also, good luck explaining that you used equal force by popping out a guy's eyeball to a jury.
This is giving me a headache, I'm going to class and work on my rubber and tornado guard.
By the way, I don't think BJJ should be thought of as sport formost, just a small aspect of the art, just my 2 cents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U96M9...eature=related
Unfortunately it cuts off during the most important part (the very end of the video), but the entire video is good watching.
I understand What your saying. I think everyone can appreciate juijitsu and the ability to actually practice at a high intensity level. Shit I love it. But from time to time, I like to show off my flashy shit too. I also enjoy my traditional juijitsu finger locks and wrist locks. But I will say that at this time, I'm all about 10pjjQuote:
Originally Posted by AJ Camacho
hey gorlock, I wanted to share a couple of things with you just as a different view of all these things you raised here. in response to your division one wrestler theory, I had this very thing happen one night at a party where a very good friend of mine who happens to be a former all state and division 1 and formerly a wwe pro wrestling champion. we were drinking and after many shots we were horsing around and talking smack when one thing led to another and it got real. he swung at me three times in which I was able to dodge and then he shot in on me. as his head got to my belly, I over hooked it with my left and fishhooked his left cheek with my right thumb and spun his head around and stood him back up, we wrestled and eventually he took me down where I immediately pulled old school rubber guard and transitioned to london positon, where I used his ponytail to secure the position deeper and control his head that much more, and this left my right hand free to backfist him several times to the face before some other friends broke us up. a few days later we spoke and all was forgiven and chalked up to drunken stupidity, which I am very glad that we did, because to this day, we are the best of friends and have a love and mutual respect for one another. So dirty tricks can be effective if utilized right. I think someone even said that maybe not so much for an untrained guy, but someone with training can be very lethal when they need to be, and I think that makes the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by GorlockMacGregor
As for the legal aspect, I've unfortunately have found myself there waaaayyyy too many times. The key to self defense is that you can you whatever means necessary to fend off an attack equal to the force being delivered. You can't shoot someone who punches at you once, but if you attack me with your bare hands, anything that I do with my bare hands is ok to repel your attack, and thats the key, repel and flee is the courts answer to street fighting, as long as you do that your fine. In my personal case, I've repelled and then proceeded to beat the shit outta them, this is wrong, because I then became the aggressor, which is no better than being the attacker.
End thought is that "lost" raised some very good points about lethal techniques and training, but because they are lethal, training them is a very difficult sword to walk, so I wouldnt advise scratching anyone to practice. I also wouldn't discount them either, as I have used them in several street fights, and no, I don't live in a place where this happens, but yes, I did bounce in bars, bounty hunted, and did private security work for over twenty years where I did feel those options necessary for my personal health and safety. So, you guys who practice juijitsu as a sport, thats great and I love it too, as most of the systems that I have trained for years, but Don't be so hard on people who question real life and possibly death applications of the same arts. people train for various reasons, some for belts, some for exercise, and some to be lethal and feel more confident about their abilities to be safe in dangerous situations. hope that maybe this clears up a few thoughts or even makes you sit back and think about different aspects to training, as I think that might have been "lost" idea to begin with. You may not agree with his approach or methods, but that doesn't make him stupid either, hope every one has a great day, because the weekend is here.