Don't theses guys train fuckin Jiu Jitsu??!!!
Printable View
Don't theses guys train fuckin Jiu Jitsu??!!!
Anyone can have a rough night against collegiate Div. 1 NCAA National Wrestling Champions. Vinny will bounce back, maybe he just wasn't ready for a top 10 opponent just yet. He just got back in the UFC.
Yeah, but tell me we weren't all thinking jump guard or shoot for the takedown. Something!! Davis obviously didn't want any of Vinny's ground game so why not at least they to take him there. I feel like so many ground guys are trying to prove something standing. Fuck that. Win!!!
Belcher is doing the same thing. Falling to execute....
The Big Country knockout just cheered me up. Something about watching the big dude knock mother fuckers out. Awesome.
Vinny got outclassed, and bit off more than he could chew, same with belcher, he got eaten alive with punches and kept droping his hands like a showboat.
I know I'll hear shit. But currently at the highest level of MMA (ufc) and the top contenders. BJJ is the least important art in MMA.
Just'd repped you for that comment I 100% agree imo dominant wrestling can not be beat in high level mmaQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge
Jack: I respectfully disagree. BJJ is not the least important. Its the person who is not sticking to their strong aspect to their game. Mir tried to box, Vinny tried to box. They only tried to take down when they are worned out and its almost impossible to take down a wrestler when they are sweaty and tired. If they stick with what they know and go for it, the outcome might have been to their favor. Also the HUGE factor was their cardio. It looks like Vinny was just so tired from the get go. Maybe due to the weight cut? Whatever it was, he just doesn't even have the energy to hold his hands up. This footwork wasn't there. Phil land those jab at will. Phil cardio was off the chart, he look so fresh where as Vinny was looking so tired. Yeah I was rooting for Vinny.
It wasnt too long ago Damian Maia totally has his way with Jon Fitch... Using Jiu JitsuQuote:
Originally Posted by DavidHamp
davis looked extremely wet and shiny, just saying. Vinnys games plan was wrong, why didn't he ever try to clinch up and pull guard?
Belcher fought a stupid fight, I cant believe he was actually executing his game plan.
I like Alan a lot but Bisping kicked Belchers ass. Worst Belcher performance I can remember, and tbh some awful promotion for his new product. Which by the way he is pushing so hard it almost feels like he has been playing besties with Lloyd Irvin and the Avellans LOL j/k. :)
The Vinnie fight was horrible too. He seemed really flat footed after the 1st round. Was such a shame as I desperately wanted to see him kick Davis' ass.
:)
Thats just how that dude looks lol, he looked good with his jabs, but Vinny just seemed stiff and was hesitating to much,Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
i know it comes from a guy watching it from his couch, but he should have pulled guard, or shot for a takedown and just roll to his guard like paul harris would do
The way Damian controlled Fitch was so impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneJitsu
HIgh level wrestling i would say GSP vs Diaz as a more recent example. Dont get me wrong I loveeeeeee JJ and will never leave but train once with a NCAA All American. With the littlest of JJ knowledge they will smash through most of the highest level of bjj guys in MMAQuote:
Originally Posted by StoneJitsu
This thread needs more jiujitsu love.
Diaz is not a high level black belt. GSP has no wrestling credentials. GSP is a bjj black belt.
Bjj guys fail for not trusting their bjj. Maia is a great example.
>>implying that's not where that marketing is coming from..Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sales
Taking Phil down is fucking insanely hard. Once on the ground Phil's one objective is to disengage and box, which he is better at. Phil is amazing more than Vinny is bad. Vinny's still a murderer who ent up against a full prepared and executed game plan. Any body criticizing Vinny has never went up against that level of competion. Sometimes they have the ability to completely nullify your strengths.
I do wish he would have tried some sort of dynamic entry ala flying scissor, rolling knee bar, or even pull half. There is no such thing as a bad spot on the ground for vinny. I would also like to see him be able to clench and pummel for body locks then trip. This is how Demian schooled Fitch.
Aoki doesn't try to stand with anybody and has had some success.
Maia is a great example of adapting his bjj for mma. JJ won't work if you can't get into a grappling situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
I totally agree with bobby. Get to the situation is the key. What frustrating me when I was watching Vinny is that I know how bad ass he is in Jiu Jitsu and even Joe Rogan was saying that Vinny been "working on" his muy thai / stand up. Ok so in a fight like that, why not go to your strong game 1st? You are a world champion black belt, creat the situation. I don't know what it means to be a world champion black belt, I just know that they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. Creating the situation to use what you are great at, not trying to "work on" something you are not good at yet while facing a guy like Phil. That's just my 2 cents.
Agree 100% with Bobby.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
I also believe although Vinny was outclassed on his feet by Phil, his standup has greatly improved over the last few years. His standup performance was nothing to be ashamed of. In fact I think he should be proud of the strides he has made in that area of his game.
The Fact That Vinny Was Even Able To Take Phil Down At All Was Impressive. Thats The Advantage Wrestlers Have In Mma. They Control Where The Fight Takes Place.
Phil Saw The Difference In The Striking And Used His WrestlingTo Keep It There. Smart Guy.
You Can Bet That Vinny Didnt Choose To Stand With Phil.
He Had One Chance To Finish Phil After The First Take Down And Missed It. At The Highest Level Sometimes That One Chance Is All You Get.
Id Have To Disagree About Jiu Jitsu Being The Least Important Though.Damien Is Eating The 170 Div. Alive Right Now With Jj.
Gsp Isnt A Great Wrestler Either. He Has A Good Single And A Good Double, But His Entries And Timing On His Takedowns Comes From His Karate.
Those Are His Words.
He However Does Have A Bjj Black Belt.
(Insert) Jj Love :)
Why Does My Phone Always Capitalize everything.....
How dare you?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge
Currently. Just wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge
Regardless it is because it is so respected that the game has evolved around it. It must be addressed so much so that game plans are built around avoiding it. We just gotta learn better ways to inject it. Oh, and we will.
Jiu jitsu is jiu jitsu. MMA is MMA.
Striking without takedown defense (wrestling) won't get you far
Wrestling without bjj will get you subbed
Bjj without the ability to get it to the ground will lead to losses
The Strikers and Wrestlers have done a better job overall adapting there game
There are also other factors like judging, gloves, round length, stand ups, etc...that have hurt the BJJ guys
In the almighty words of Iron Mike Tyson (team lloyd Irvin)....“Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.”Quote:
Originally Posted by Cora Sek
tbf i think its jsut a process of evolution. first ufc was a bunch of brawlers and then bjj came along and dominated them. i think the reason people think bjj is out now is that it dominated so much that everyone started doing it. wretlers came in and had some good g&p and then got tapped out, then they learnt bjj and wrestling started dominating them but its not that wrestling is better i think that wrestlers have been putting more time into jiu jitsu than jiu jitsu guys have been doing wrestling. wrestling has evolved to be aware of submissions just like stand up guys have adjusted their stances becuase of takedowns.
i think that mma is only barely coming into its teenage years, its no where near complete yet, wait until all the different styles of stand up are in there, capoiera mixed in with muay thai mixed with wreslting and jiu jitsu and sambo.
not only that but jiu jitsu guys that are dangerous of their back and on top and havea deadly open guard and a deadly clinch game.
i also think that jiu jitsu having such a big fan group in teh early days has gotten so many people into it and has watered down what it really means to be a black belt.
If Usain Bolt joined the Yankees tomorrow would you expect him to hit home runs? No?
Yet he is the fastest man alive and baseball players have to run fast sometimes in baseball, so..
Wrestling can determine where a fight will take place but Jiu Jitsu can finish a match in a heartbeat. Like Sonnen-Silva 1! Both are incredible disciplines and to be honest it would be good to be competent in both.
I thought belcher looked as if he was fighting injured. Also Vinny needed to get it to the mat early on. When I saw how slippery Phil davis back was in round 2 I was convinced that there was no way he would get a hold of Davis.
Agreed, tired of seeing guys with a clear advantage on the ground, not press the issue. Once you realize you're outclassed on the feet your entire goal should be to drag the fight to the ground however you can. Jump guard, smash a guy into the fence and neutralize some of his wrestling advantage, football tackle a mother fucker, SOMETHING!!!
Vinny's the one who was in there so only he can answer this, but I really think that Phil needs a tonne of credit for his game plan and how he dictated the fight. He pretty much had Vinny worrying about defending punches and throwing strikes to keep Davis at bay then about going for submissions. Phil was smart to avoid the ground for the most part just to take Vinny's strength out of it. One thing I noticed which has been going on forever but was apparent in this particular fight was that when it comes to the ground, the fight favours the person on top. In bjj if you establish some grip and pull guard, if your opponent stands up, they must engage or are penalized. If at any point you stand up from ground fighting, you can almost always step away and have the ref stand the fight up, which essentially is a disadvantage to the better ground guy. Interesting fight, I'm sure Vinny learnt so much from this fight and will be back much better from this.
Why would you want to go to the ground with vinny ?
davis had to take a gamble in that his stand up is and was better then vinny 's and with his wrestling background he was going to stop any take down that vinny would have/and did shoot on him excellent game plan by davis
as far as bisbing vs belcher
bisping has 14 wins via knock out 4 via submission and has never been submitted
instead of trying to knock him out and trade blows alan should have closed the distance work up against the cage look to take it to the ground and took bisping in to waters unknown
just my thoughts
GSP is a wrestler. His wrestling credentials is his MMA fights nobody gets the takedowns as good as him. GSP is not dominating his opponents with his BJJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Is Maia the best example you guys can come up with? Sad. Maia has only 1 submission win since 2009. Losing twice to 2 wrestlers also. But I do understand the point you were making. Eddie talks about it all the time. The next generation of fighters will be great at every aspect of fighting. Less specialist, just complete warriors!Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
Maia vs. Fitch fight I keep hearing about. If that fight hits the ground I would expect Maia to dominate Fitch. So is it really that huge of a win. Of course its mma and these things don't always happen. Maia is a multiple time World Champion in bjj. Fitch, a walk on at a d1 college, ends his college wrestling career with a losing record. Gets his bjj bb in 5 years. Of all the former wrestlers (mma)that have a black belts in bjj. Fitch is the only one I consider a true jiu jitsu guy over his wrestling.
If you can take down a National Wrestling Champion at will. You are a great Wrestler! I don't care if its karate timing its still a Wraslin move!!! Again he's not dominating his opponents with his bjj.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
Jiu Jitsu is just a piece to the puzzle..and you cant go in there with just really good jj and work that gameplan its not gonna work. Especially if the other guy is more well rounded. Phil was more well rounded he was the better fighter point blank.
Also Rickson and Marcelo have been quoted in saying 70% of jiu jitsu doesnt work in MMA.Yea he took his back for a second there's that missing 30%.
Lets be real with each other vinny lost because he didnt have any 10p logo's. How the hell does a 10p black belt not rep it super confused.
Idk, that's just what he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge
I think what GSP was referring to was how he is able to close that gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate