training question - or is more about implementation?

Normally when I learn a new technique in a specific class, I drill it in class, then I drill it one more time (when I say one more time I don't mean one more repetition I mean one more class time) then I try to incorporate it into a live roll. Sometimes I roll with no intention of trying to submit someone, but rather force the person through baiting or scramble to get me into a position so that I can practice the move live. I am not having the best rates of success in hitting it in the first live roll attempt, my scramble might have cost me bad position and I get submitted. Sometimes I try it like 2 or 3 times and the guy is now waiting for the next attempt. What do you do? Is this a valid strategy? I am kinda on my own with this stuff as I have posted before, some guys don't want to drill escapes, sweeps, defense or transitions, but they all seem to like to drill submissions. I am not drilling submissions at all anymore, as I feel that I really need to work on transitions and control and the submissions will come in time. I think that if I improve my transition game, stop leaving arms/legs/neck available to hit with the submission, I can let people carry my weight, tire a little, and then go for my submissions. I am dealing with a lot of guys who have lengthy wrestling backgrounds, so they are kinda tired of drilling takedowns and control positions. I don't have a wrestling background, so I need more work on takedowns, turning corners, controlling guys on the ground, and moving properly. The Sambo coach is really good at ground transitions and I feel some improvement.

Maybe I am overanalyzing this stuff, I have a habit of doing that.

E.G. I learn a move - transition, sweep, guard pass, whatever on Wednesday, Saturday I drill it some with a willing and sometimes unwilling participant, Monday I try to use it live. If I feel shaky about it on Wednesday I ask the instructor to clarify it again for me, get some reps in, then Saturday I try to go live with it the whole time.

for the record, I don't really care if I get submitted (I don't let it just happen) while trying to work on my stuff. I figure it is a learning experience. It isn't like they are repeatedly punching me in the face, I just tap and we go again.

any input would be appreciated. Sorry for being long winded, just hard to condense this.

I think what you're doing isn't wrong or right. Everyone's Jiu Jitsu journey is different. If its helping you nail those moves, and later on you're having success with it then why worry about how you're going about incorporating those moves. The most important thing is reps. You have to continuously put reps in drilling, and sparring, but maybe incorporate 85-90% resistance drilling and you may see a smoother transition to live rolling. One thing that I've picked up in the couple years of doing Jiu-Jitsu, is to just flow with what you're given(Positions, Transitions, Scrambles) because there is always a way to get back to where you want to be. Just keep doing what you're doing and if you see improvement continue with it.

I have no other 10th planet guys to drill with (I will starting may 15th though) so I have had to drill with my dog or in my mind and then work things out live rolling. It's been hard as hell. Who wants to give up dominant positions to work on rubber guard or half guard when someones trying like hell to sub you? I eventually made it pay off for the paths out of half guard but it took a lot of getting smashed by really big guys and getting tapped when I could have worked for dominant positions and "won".

I dont believe there is any great solution for those of us that don't have people to drill 10th planet with. One thing that my coach told me has proved valuable on this topic, you want to split your rolling in thirds. ie one third of the time roll with people that you have no chance of tapping, 1/3 w/people at your level and 1/3 with people you can always tap. This give you a chance to play around with stuff on the guys that aren't so good yet.

I would have to say that at the very beginning levels I would just worry more about balance, base, breathing, body awareness and basic escapes and sweeps.

interested to see what better guys have to say about this.

If thats the mothpd that works best for you then there isnt anything wrong with it, everyone learns differently.

I learn something new, drill it a couple times, try it sparing figure out why it didnt work drill it again and so on until I have a deep understanding of what every single step of the move accomplishes and what happens with the technique if I miss one.

I would be leery about never going for submissions though, you will notice them less and less.

Sometimes when I spar Im trying to be completely defensive and not allow my opponent to gain an inch sometimes Im trying to submit my opponent every 10 seconds sometimes Im trying to just pick a position and stay in control until you get mad and tap from side control and some times im humting for specific submissions and sometimes I just do a move with the intention of seeing how you react to what I did.

Also IMO if your team mates dont want to drill controls, transitions and such they are basically doing catch wrestling not BJJ. In brazilian jiu-jitsu having the ability to keeping mount forever and knowing 1 submission is better then not being able to keep mount and knowing 10 subs from mount...

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Originally Posted by ern

Normally when I learn a new technique in a specific class, I drill it in class, then I drill it one more time (when I say one more time I don't mean one more repetition I mean one more class time) then I try to incorporate it into a live roll. Sometimes I roll with no intention of trying to submit someone, but rather force the person through baiting or scramble to get me into a position so that I can practice the move live. I am not having the best rates of success in hitting it in the first live roll attempt, my scramble might have cost me bad position and I get submitted. Sometimes I try it like 2 or 3 times and the guy is now waiting for the next attempt. What do you do? Is this a valid strategy? I am kinda on my own with this stuff as I have posted before, some guys don't want to drill escapes, sweeps, defense or transitions, but they all seem to like to drill submissions. I am not drilling submissions at all anymore, as I feel that I really need to work on transitions and control and the submissions will come in time. I think that if I improve my transition game, stop leaving arms/legs/neck available to hit with the submission, I can let people carry my weight, tire a little, and then go for my submissions. I am dealing with a lot of guys who have lengthy wrestling backgrounds, so they are kinda tired of drilling takedowns and control positions. I don't have a wrestling background, so I need more work on takedowns, turning corners, controlling guys on the ground, and moving properly. The Sambo coach is really good at ground transitions and I feel some improvement.

Maybe I am overanalyzing this stuff, I have a habit of doing that.

E.G. I learn a move - transition, sweep, guard pass, whatever on Wednesday, Saturday I drill it some with a willing and sometimes unwilling participant, Monday I try to use it live. If I feel shaky about it on Wednesday I ask the instructor to clarify it again for me, get some reps in, then Saturday I try to go live with it the whole time.

for the record, I don't really care if I get submitted (I don't let it just happen) while trying to work on my stuff. I figure it is a learning experience. It isn't like they are repeatedly punching me in the face, I just tap and we go again.

any input would be appreciated. Sorry for being long winded, just hard to condense this.

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Gonna need my bong and my readers for this one folks.

Im not saying this is your coach.

One of the main problems many have with drilling techs and making them apply is how and when they are taught. Many coaches show isolated random techs. A halfguard sweep, then a mount escape, followed by a guard sub. This gives you one move in a position to try to shove down an opponents throat, who is defending(and probably did the drills too). This is ineffective and a setup for frustration and failure.

Techs should be presented in series, because there are always counters and defense. But these counters and defenses leave holes to be countered themselves. Start with and master the original drill. Realize that he will intelligently react and defend, then drill your counter. It keeps going and whoever runs out of counters or gets controlled first loses.

The secret to making a drill work live, is knowing it inside and out. His options, your options, timing, base. Whoever knows more automatically has the advantage. Whoever can exectute wins.

Wow, glad you asked about this because it's really cool to read different perspectives and opinions from those far more experienced. My one major point of feedback regarding this is to really try to focus on basics, and developing those as you develop the rest of your game. I had an issue similar to yours when I started, and even over time, training a tonne of subs was still useless. It was only when I rerouted my focus, and spent a tonne of time focusing on basics that I was able to gel my subs with my sweeps, transitions, passes, etc. The simplest things make the difference. For me, framing (always when on bottom, whether be with knees in a z guard, or with my arms while side mounted or in an open guard, etc), gripping (and developing my grip game aswell as my overhook/underhook consciousness and proficiency), along with constantly trying to work on basics (basic passes, sweeps, etc that I can expand on later and always go back to when trying things in live rolling) have made a huge difference in my success, efficiency, and ability to then expand and work in all sorts of fun stuff into my game

The only problem with not drilling any submissions with your transitions is that you don't have them to threaten your partner to open up for the transition. Because they aren't worried about subs they are waiting for your transition and getting ahead of it. You don't need to drive for sub but you need to have something to make them worry about.

Actually, this is informative. Gives me some ideas when we start rolling next month. That's whay I love this place. I've gotten more knowledge in a week than I've gotten on other sites in a month.

"The only problem with not drilling any submissions with your transitions is that you don't have them to threaten your partner to open up for the transition. Because they aren't worried about subs they are waiting for your transition and getting ahead of it"

good point, didn't think of it that way.

[QUOTE=bobby rivers;170758]
One of the main problems many have with drilling techs and making them apply is how and when they are taught. Many coaches show isolated random techs. A halfguard sweep, then a mount escape, followed by a guard sub. This gives you one move in a position to try to shove down an opponents throat, who is defending(and probably did the drills too). This is ineffective and a setup for frustration and failure.

Techs should be presented in series, because there are always counters and defense. But these counters and defenses leave holes to be countered themselves. Start with and master the original drill. Realize that he will intelligently react and defend, then drill your counter. It keeps going and whoever runs out of counters or gets controlled first loses.
QUOTE]

I noticed this big difference when I went to Vegas. They taught a series of xguard and butterfly moves over three days. I liked that a lot. I also liked Maste eddie's seminar I was able to attend, because everything was broken down and then the counters were shown.

So training should be transition-sweep-guard pass-submission? Did I miss a step?

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Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson

One thing that my coach told me has proved valuable on this topic, you want to split your rolling in thirds. ie one third of the time roll with people that you have no chance of tapping, 1/3 w/people at your level and 1/3 with people you can always tap. This give you a chance to play around with stuff on the guys that aren't so good yet.

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See, this is what I love about this site, different perspectives and experiences I can learn from. I have avoided rolling with people not as good as me, as I believed I would learn more by people that were better than me. I see your instructors point, it is live drilling so to speak, very interesting.

Thanks to everyone that has given me more food for thought. I appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by VictorV

So training should be transition-sweep-guard pass-submission? Did I miss a step?

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Many.

Teach me, Wise Ones. We begin training Wednesday and I kinda want to have some sort of clue what to do. The blue belt who is our senior guy won't be back from work-ups until the 9th.

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Originally Posted by VictorV

Teach me, Wise Ones. We begin training Wednesday and I kinda want to have some sort of clue what to do. The blue belt who is our senior guy won't be back from work-ups until the 9th.

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the first time the instructor walks away and tells you to take people through warm ups is always a crazy thing because although you've done everything a million times by then, you have to ignore the fact that you were just given the honor of leading the class and jump right on it without standing there looking stupid for 5 seconds.

So you're gonna have people stretch out (if they're not supposed to do that beforehand) and then take em through warm ups. There are the warm up series on MTS and/or jui jitsu sit-ups, yes/no/i dont know neck exercises, umpa's, ebi's, standing sitting in base ect. then your gonna demonstrate and drill technique. As long as you know your group and dont have any problem guys, just roll after drilling. If you have any rules like no leglocks for white belts normally then just remind people so they dont try to get away with it on your watch.

Just be confident and dont teach above your level.

Where do you live? Im meeting up with a couple nibiru myself soon, could be the genesis of the humboldt hotbox.

I live in Norfolk, VA. I've never had any kind of formal jiu jitsu training. There's going to be about 4 or 5 of us starting up tomorrow and none of us ahve ever met before. But I'm hoping it's the start of the Norfolk Hotbox.

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Originally Posted by Josh Bodmon

For me, framing (always when on bottom, whether be with knees in a z guard, or with my arms while side mounted or in an open guard, etc), gripping (and developing my grip game aswell as my overhook/underhook consciousness and proficiency), along with constantly trying to work on basics (basic passes, sweeps, etc that I can expand on later and always go back to when trying things in live rolling) have made a huge difference in my success, efficiency, and ability to then expand and work in all sorts of fun stuff into my game

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I can attest to this. Last class we rolled at, your frame work and your guard work was amazing bro. Leaps and bounds. You were never in a rush for a sub, but when you had it, your positioning ensured you had it.

Sugggest to your partners or instructors to run situational rolling sessions. With short round intervals. Sean Bollinger and Jeremy fields are always running these kinds of drills and they really help for both offensive and defensive purposes.

One suggestion that i would make is to never underestimate visualizing a move in your head, each and every detail of the move with exactly where and what you should do with every part of your body. This has helped me leaps in bounds in learning moves. It wasnt a very good skill for me right off the bat, but it now allows me to really visualize a move while im at work or doing something else. It also has really shown its potential when taking a video of a move ive seen online (where i get all my 10p moves from) and bringing them to class, and actually hitting them, and hitting them often, or even teaching others the move.

one other thing id recommend that helps me a lot is when focusing on a move, lets just say americana in this case, i look up at least several different instructors teaching the move from the same position. That allows me to see the little tweaks and differences in each instructors americana move, and take the most effective version of it (for me) and use it. I cant say enough about how closing my eyes and visualization has helped me but there is zero replacement for getting on the mat. cant be on the mat all the time though :(

I cant say how many times i have watched a move online, lets say banana split from truck for this example, and i visualize and get it all ready in my head to try and hit someone in class even if i have never tried it before, and i never get an opportunity to go for it all day. thats kind of frustrating, but the good thing is i can try again tomorrow!

hope this helps someone. take care!