How would you change Metamoris?

Other than never having Brendan Schaub back ever...EVER!

The main issues for me are the boring Gi matches.

Now I'm not hating on the Gi and we've all seen shitty No-Gi matches but that's gotta be fixed.

I think there is a place for the Gi fights, I jst think they need to be real selective on who they choose to fight in them.
Buchecha, Roger, Galvao, Marcelo, Kron, Lovato, Caio, Glover, the list goes on and on for these are the kind of guys who could have exciting matches even if they we're in those big blow up sumo suits.
Those are the guys who should have Gi fights.

Keep the Judges- But they should hold a rank of Red/Black belt.

It should be at least 50/50 Gi and No-Gi matches, I would love it personally if it was all no-gi but really there's room for both and the Gracie's will never drop the Gi.
Talking percentages going No-Gi, Gi, No-Gi, Gi, etc increases the percentages of exciting fast paced, viewer friendly matches and of people being less put off of by the slower fights.

As far as the contest rules I would implement a 1 minute countdown clock, where the combatants have that time to initiate a take down but if they fail they implement a sit down where they start in the centre from knees.

I agree with Master Eddies yellow card point idea, where as if an opponent is diliberately stalling or keeps standing to disengage he is shown to the judges that he has been found to be going against the nature of the competition.
If nothing else this will make the evading or stalling fighter increase his urgency for a submission feeling his now losing the fight.

Bring back Dean Lister, Xande, Glover and Caio.
Get Marcelo, Ryan Hall, Mendes Bros and don't ban Bill Cooper for something silly.

What do you guys think would improve the next Metamoris?

hey man i think its pretty interesting so far and im looking forward to lots of improvments etc. i think the Gi can be pretty damn exciting. i dunno about you guys but i thought the Galvao and Lovato gi fight was awesome. yellow card seems like a good idea but whats the punishment? do they get sent off? time out? points deducted? just looks bad in the judges eyes?

something needs to be done about takedowns, schaub showed us that. though the sped up version of the dance? cyborg bum shuffle? (it wasnt a fight) that they had was pretty good. maybe 5 minutes and on the knees. 1 minute is a crazy short time for them to get it on the ground.

more tenth planet guys in there would be cool :D

I agree with everything you said.

Also, also make it like pride where the yellow card costs you a percentage of your money. Two yellows and say goodbye to half your check. One red and say goodbye to 90% of your check and get dq'd.

Galvao V Lavato was a great match, both those guys are on the list.
I know what you mean about the 1 min takedown rule being to short.
It should probably be 5 for the initial start of the contest but 1 min every time they go back to standing.
I've heard some people say that if someone sits down the other person should have to take the top position but you run the ris of losing the spiral, de la riva, and Berimbolo stuff, and that's great viewing.
Not sure how I feel about the yellow card costing money but it would one hell of a motivator ha ha!

Paying these guys to not lose, instead of paying them to win is what facilitates the stalling and lack of aggression. They need an incentive to take risks and attack. The yellow card would suffice. They also need less shuffling of the matches, and more hype behind the match-ups. They changed stuff around so much it was impossible to get excited about a match. hell I never knew the pairings.., and apparently neither did they! Im glad to see lots of subs in mma, but it's bad that the non ppv UFC card was a better grappling event than metamoris. They are fixing the matchup problem already with EddievRoyler. That's a real match, there's a reason it won't be boring, Eddie already stated that. That matchup is going to bring out the best in both guys. I'm sure there will be a sub finish. Hopefully Eddie via rubber guard. ;)

I would take away the judges again. Give them more incentive to go for the finish.

I loved the GI matches last weekend, Nicollini vs Dern was awesome. I like JT Torres vs Victor Estima too. Only poor match was Schaub vs Cyborg IMO.

The next super fight I'd like to see after Eddie vs Royler would be Marcelo vs Pablo Popovitch, sub only would be a great match.

Everyone would buy the event if Marcelo were on it, but I'm pretty sure he is retired... :(

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Originally Posted by ScottRay

Everyone would buy the event if Marcelo were on it, but I'm pretty sure he is retired... :(

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really? that's a pity. Marcelo in a sub only tournament or super fight against anyone would be super exciting.

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Originally Posted by David Moore

really? that's a pity. Marcelo in a sub only tournament or super fight against anyone would be super exciting.

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Agreed, my heart sank when I found out he was retired...

Too caught up on this gi no-gi thing. Originally this card was a 50/50 split because the Ryan hall and Bill Cooper match was no-gi. It's not even a Gracie thing. We love seeing gi matches too. That's not the problem.

The problem is that there is not enough incentive as of now for competitors to go for the finish. Introducing the judges was a bad idea. I understand the desire for closure, or the feeling that someone won, but conciousously or not athletes that believe they can win without finishing will often do so.

We saw this with Victor Estima. He believed he had done enough with his footlock attacks to secure a victory so he rested and the judges gave him the draw for the conservative strategy. If you're gonna have judges you might as well have points.

Honestly I think metamoris 2 showed the value in points, because they entice action and movement. Back the the point, if you want submission only you have to do a few things:

- Only invite competitors that are entertaining and go for the kill. Even then, sit them down and stress that this isn't a tournament about winning and losing. It's about entertainment. If this doesn't happen, Metamoris will die quiet death. They can't afford another event like this.

- Athletes will use the rule system in place in order to win. Keep the no submission=draw format.

- I'm torn on this, but either award a submission bonus to BOTH competitors if a submission happens, or do not give submission bonuses at all. If someone is way down and in a bad spot they will be less likely to stall and hang on.

I'll try and think of more but that's the main stuff. Put exciting guys in there and let them know that this isn't a regular match. ironically Metamoris was SO MUCH LESS EXCITING than the Worlds/Mundials from the weekend before. Who would've guessed?

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Originally Posted by David Moore

I would take away the judges again. Give them more incentive to go for the finish.

I loved the GI matches last weekend, Nicollini vs Dern was awesome. I like JT Torres vs Victor Estima too. Only poor match was Schaub vs Cyborg IMO.

The next super fight I'd like to see after Eddie vs Royler would be Marcelo vs Pablo Popovitch, sub only would be a great match.

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Lol I assure you that you don't want to see Pablo Popovitch in a sub only match. Marcelo has already subbed him twice anyways. ADCC 2005 and 2007 finals. Wristlock and north-south choke. If you put Marcelo in a superfight it's Rafa Mendes or bust.

Rafa won't do a superfight with Marcelo though. Weight difference is too big. That's the only logical choice for a Marcelo garcia superfight. Anything else is less-good. Marcelo vs. Leandro Lo could be cool. Marcelo vs. galvao at this point could be cool, and even with 2 or 3 losses, Galvao is way improved now days.

Rafa x Marcelo is definitely what people want to see but I'll bet the bank it never goes down.

edit: I didn't mean to come off as rude about Pablo. I'm sure it'd be a fine match I just know that with Marcelo basically retired i would want to see him face people he hasn't already had a trilogy with :)

NO judges, winner takes all money, except loser gets Airfare, hotel, food paid. No winner by submission no payout to either fighter! Metamoris keeps all money to make purses larger for next event. After a few draws you could be talking $100k purses to win. This puts skin in the game for the fighters too. No just showing up, doing nothing and collecting a check. I would be in favor of less known fighters willing to take a risk for a big payout. you could even hold a rematch for good fights that end in a draw, rematch value would be double first match.

By the way, in Metamoris 2 the Gi matches were better than the no-gi.

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Originally Posted by Greg W

NO judges, winner takes all money, except loser gets Airfare, hotel, food paid. No winner by submission no payout to either fighter! Metamoris keeps all money to make purses larger for next event. After a few draws you could be talking $100k purses to win. This puts skin in the game for the fighters too. No just showing up, doing nothing and collecting a check. I would be in favor of less known fighters willing to take a risk for a big payout. you could even hold a rematch for good fights that end in a draw, rematch value would be double first match.

By the way, in Metamoris 2 the Gi matches were better than the no-gi.

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I'm going to continue my whole deal about the gi and no-gi thing not mattering :) I agree with you, and I train a pretty even split between gi and no-gi but I still believe that the deciding factor for entertainment doesn't depend on gi or no-gi. You get exciting competitors in there with an incentive to go for the finish and they can be wearing army fatigues and you'll have an exciting match. There are some guys you'd rather see no-gi or gi (Marcelo almost always you'd prefer to see in no-gi for example) but by and large exciting athletes with the drive to go for the kill are going to give you fun matches.

Also I hate to say it but I think metamoris 2 shows us that sometimes no matter what you're going to get boring bjj. I follow the competition scene heavily but some matches are just boring, even if you think they'll be fireworks. I still think ADCC has the best ruleset for encouraging submissions while allowing for strategy changes mid-match in the grappling world.

When there are zero rules except submission only you get those Braulio/Rodolfo situations. Braulio tried the same strategy for 20 minutes because there was never an incentive for him to change it up. In ADCC you get the chance to finish and go for the kill without fear of losing points in the no scoring period but you still get people fighting to get ahead and get numbers on the board in the points period. A card full of 20 minute matches are bound to give you some slow paced action here and there.

Black belt only, Brendan Schaub shouldn't have even been in it. There are awesome brown belts out there, but I think it should be black belt only.

I like eddies idea about letting it be gi optional. That's a cool concept.

Overall I would like to see: less gracie self promotion, more exciting evenly matched fights, and a penalty system for stalling/non engagement

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Originally Posted by CTGRXB

Black belt only, Brendan Schaub shouldn't have even been in it. There are awesome brown belts out there, but I think it should be black belt only.

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How's about just no Brandon Schaub. Or the Miyao's I hate having to try to explain Berimbolo to everyone that doesn't train Jiu Jitsu and plus Double Guard pull to 50/50 for 13 minutes would be agnozing!

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

I like eddies idea about letting it be gi optional. That's a cool concept.

Overall I would like to see: less gracie self promotion, more exciting evenly matched fights, and a penalty system for stalling/non engagement

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So like one person wearing gi and one person with no gi? I can't see any advantage to wearing a gi if your opponent is not. When you're wearing a gi you're literally wearing your opponent's weapon and vice-versa. If I could wear no-gi against someone in a gi I would feel like I had every advantage in the book.

Besides an Ezekiel choke what else could they do that I couldn't?

If someone told me they'd be leaving the gi off for the match I'd also shed that fucking gi so fast their head would spin.

Unfortunately the submission/judging problem won't be fixed because they want to make a ufc of bjj, it's brought up in the eddie bravo podcast w/ javi and rose and ralek said he wants to do a championship w/ kron involved. So you can pretty much forget draws when championships are involved. There is no way monetize having a champion w/out a winner or loser, especially this early for them. Maybe when they have a UFC type following and there is a draw, then a rematch will sell just

I think the judging this weekend was correct, jt vs victor and dern vs niccolini was a draw. But its hard to have a champion without a winner and a loser.

It is BS if you say you have to beat the champion to be the champion because then it isn't a fair judging.

Now if its a draw then its an automatic rematch then its okay, but how many rematches need to be done. So there has to be a winner or no one will buy it over and over.

In the end if the metmoris people want to make money then they need decision and judges.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

So like one person wearing gi and one person with no gi? I can't see any advantage to wearing a gi if your opponent is not. When you're wearing a gi you're literally wearing your opponent's weapon and vice-versa. If I could wear no-gi against someone in a gi I would feel like I had every advantage in the book.

Besides an Ezekiel choke what else could they do that I couldn't?

If someone told me they'd be leaving the gi off for the match I'd also shed that fucking gi so fast their head would spin.

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There are people that would do it. Royce did it. It's an interesting idea I think, and not my idea originally. Eddie was the first I heard to suggest this format.

X amount to show up.

X+Y to get submitted.

X+Y+Z to submit.

Even in nogi if I could grab the shorts and they couldn't, that would be a huge advantage. Royce did it because the entire world was ignorant to jj and he wanted to encourage them to grab him as opposed to punch. I can't see any way someone would give an opponent a million handles while only giving hooks. Unless he wanted to make a statement. When I grapple a gi guy nogi it feels like cheating.

I mean I see where you guys are coming from, but either way, some interesting matches could happen. :)

To be honest I agree with Mike on the gi vs no gi - wasn't an issue for me and I like to see both. In terms of improvement they should definitely award decent bonuses for submissions. Hopefully that would encourage everyone to go for it. I'm not sold on the idea of awarding a bonus if you get submitted but it certainly is an interesting idea. Lastly, if anyone stalls or doesn't engage they don't get invited back to any future event. If Metamoris can be built as a ongoing premium event then the prospect of not getting invited back would hopefully be enough incentive to give a good contest.

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

There are people that would do it. Royce did it. It's an interesting idea I think, and not my idea originally. Eddie was the first I heard to suggest this format.

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Royce did it because no one else in the tournament knew anything about jiu jitsu. They chose all the fighters for the event, and Royce had even fought some of the guys before. Royce wasn't concerned about Art Jimmerson putting him in spider guard or anything like that. I'd be interested to know if this was true but I always heard that one of the big reasons they did it was to make Royce's size not as clear.

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Originally Posted by ScottRay

Everyone would buy the event if Marcelo were on it, but I'm pretty sure he is retired... :(

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Is this official now? As far as I knew he turned down ADCC because he has other business opportunities at the moment but stated that he has not retired.

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Originally Posted by Jason 'J-Faz' Farren

Is this official now? As far as I knew he turned down ADCC because he has other business opportunities at the moment but stated that he has not retired.

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This was the source: http://www.adcombat.com/adcc-without-marcelo-garcia

I guess he could always come in last minute but for now it looks like he's out. He has not officially retired bu that's more or less what it is. i don't think we've seen the very last of him on the mat, but for a while I expect not to.

The last time he competed was ADCC 2011, and before that. That's almost 2 years and I don't expect him to do the Worlds next year either. So at the earliest I'd say we could see him nack maybe in 2015?

it will really suck not seeing him at ADCC but if he really is backing away I think it's smart for him to go out on top.

I will definitely miss him choking the shit out of everyone with ease. 77kg this year is going to be wide the fuck open. So many people could take the gold now.

Oops double post

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

Royce did it because no one else in the tournament knew anything about jiu jitsu. They chose all the fighters for the event, and Royce had even fought some of the guys before. Royce wasn't concerned about Art Jimmerson putting him in spider guard or anything like that. I'd be interested to know if this was true but I always heard that one of the big reasons they did it was to make Royce's size not as clear.

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True. Also, once the world (and his opponents in PRIDE) started getting real good at jiujitsu/controlling people with the gi, Royce ditched the gi and went with standard MMA shorts.

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

True. Also, once the world (and his opponents in PRIDE) started getting real good at jiujitsu/controlling people with the gi, Royce ditched the gi and went with standard MMA shorts.

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Absolutely man totally agree

No sub = no winner. If it's a draw, the purse for both fighters is cut by 50%. Why even have judges if they're just going to call a draw?

I'd really like to see them implement the sudden death round kind of like at the East Coast camp. If it goes the distance, each fighter gets one minute from their dead-zone of choice. We go back and forth until there is at least one submission. If both fighters get a sub, the fastest sub wins.

I like Eddies yellow card idea if there's no sudden death round.

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Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt

No sub = no winner. If it's a draw, the purse for both fighters is cut by 50%. Why even have judges if they're just going to call a draw?

I'd really like to see them implement the sudden death round kind of like at the East Coast camp. If it goes the distance, each fighter gets one minute from their dead-zone of choice. We go back and forth until there is at least one submission. If both fighters get a sub, the fastest sub wins.

I like Eddies yellow card idea if there's no sudden death round.

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You can't reduce both by 50% if not sub. They will conspire to give a sub so they can get full purse.

Eddie tweeted today that Metamoris 3 will be back to the original format i.e. no finish = draw. There will be no judges in the next event. Hopefully this become a permanent change.

Cool, I could go either way with the judges.
Going back to the pay for subs debate, maybe they should offer a submission bonus like the UFC but standard for all submissions finishes.
Maybe even extra incentive to be impressive by adding a submission of the night bonus for the most exciting submission finish.

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Originally Posted by Greg W

You can't reduce both by 50% if not sub. They will conspire to give a sub so they can get full purse.

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Good point; I hadn't considered that. Glad to hear they're scrapping the judges. It sounds like that really made a difference in the overall aggressiveness of the competitors.

I like the idea of some kind of incentive for going for the submission. I will never understand fighting for points or advantages. Points and silly rules are partly why I don't care for almost all sports. Jiu jitsu is different because there is no bullshit when it is stripped to its barest essentials. I won, you lost. We both know it because one of us is asleep. I don't care how big an Aoki fan you are you can't argue with Kron's guillotine. (sidebar: Ice Cream? Really? I mean it's better than G in a Gi but... Second sidebar: anybody ever notice G in a Gi is also 'gina Gi? No offense to the ladies...)

once you learn jj you will appreciate gi. :)

Just so it's clear I do appreciate the Gi I don't appreciate boring matches.

No Judges
Xtra Bonus on Sub Finish
5 Minutes on Feet Time (Otherwise Start from The Knees)
Yellow Card Rule (With Purse Deduction)

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Originally Posted by Jason 'J-Faz' Farren

Just so it's clear I do appreciate the Gi I don't appreciate boring matches.

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+1

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Originally Posted by Arun Sharma

No Judges
Xtra Bonus on Sub Finish
5 Minutes on Feet Time (Otherwise Start from The Knees)
Yellow Card Rule (With Purse Deduction)

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And soccer kicks! Wait...Nevermind. :)

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Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt

(sidebar: Ice Cream? Really? I mean it's better than G in a Gi but...

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Dude I couldn't believe it when they called him that. I was totally embarrassed for him.