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What u guys think of beginners doing leg locks?.. i personly think a strong leg lock game from the beginning of your jiu jitsu journey is so awesome, since everybody starting to go for them and none really wanna defend against them. should we all not just start crack some shins :rolleyes:
poor english.. i dont give a fuck am danish anyway ha.!
I'm pretty sure Mr Herzog will have something to say about this....
I think ankle locks, knee bars and calf crushes are fine from near enough day one. Probably best to hold off on heel hooks and maybe toe holds for at least a few months.
But don't get lazy with learning to pass!
I believe the reason they are considered dangerous is because most people are very new to them. Shoulder locks are dangerous for 2 people that are inexperienced in them. NAGA leglocks at the lowest experience division. If you look up the injuries for the past few years of NAGA, it's all shoulders, elbows,necks...leg injuries are so far down the list. Takedowns are dangerous for 2 rookies also.. So you see my stance on the "dangerous" topic.
Barncat and I have been repping, landing, and teaching the russian knot series for many years. (You notice Barncat eating up the local experts division with it). I personally love kneebars and slicers also. Many locals schools have considered us a leglock school but we really do NOT focus on it. It's a part of the system just like everything else. You get taught the knot series when we are teaching it that day. I do kinda consider the knot to be an intermediate position. We definitely don't let people finish heelhooks in rolling. Barncat and I finish them on each other, but not the students. The heelhook is tricky, it doesnt hurt until its way too late. experience is the only way to do them safely. With that said, We embrace leglocks just like any other part of the game and a have the safest gym in our area.
I think leg locks are very important for newer people to learn.
I like the way zog shows them, it seems like your opponent has no chance to escape so you can go slow
People get injured when a new guy who just really wants the tap gets one and then both people scramble and boom be reefs a heel hook.
Learn them right and early, less chance for injury, than sloppy ,muscle bound attempts.
They dont work ever! practice things that work like wrist locks. That is all, thread over!
Haha! I love this! I nearly fell outta my chair laughing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Yockel
Haha! Yokel is right. Nobody should be training them, they are crap. ask the Brazilians.. Lol
I love the contradictory arguments they make. "Leglocks are too dangerous" and "Leglocks don't work, just pain moves". Sometimes in the same sentence... Haha
Are the legs weaker or are people just too stubborn when it comes to leglocks? I know for a tournament in April i refused to tap to a toe hold and I'm still feeling it. Def weaker and doesnt take much to pop it again.
The knee was made to fail and you dont feel much discomfort until its about too late. I believe newer people are stubborn about tapping to them (rotating leg locks) because it dosnt hurt a lot until its really on and even then its more like severe discomfort. Seems only the rotation leg locks are really dangerous in this wayQuote:
Originally Posted by Brent Smith
I believe zog said that his guys dont do rotating leg locks until they get a blue belt. (hope Im remembering correctly)
Yup, the focus for rookies should be masting the positions of control. I only allows my blues and up to do rotational leg locks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
This is a good question that always sparks good conversation. I feel leglocks are great to teach early on. As the fighter progresses, s/he will gravitate to what interests them the most and they'll create a game around this. It could be leglocks, RG, passing, etc. The fact they were exposed early on will allow them to make this choice.
Then it comes down to the student. Are they aware enough to know they should tap? Is the student putting on the sub aware enough to let go and keep going? This awareness comes with reps and drilling. It's a costly mistake if there are two unaware grapplers that are both going for legs. It's perfectly okay to tell your training partner, "no heel hooks" or "no toe holds", and incrementally add what you're willing to defend.
Im just about over my first knee injury (Grade 2 mcl sprain) Been thinking of you Coach Herzog.
OuchQuote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
The majority of knee injuries I've seen in person result from the person defending the wrong way. Rolling the wrong way on toeholds and heel hooks, rolling out of straight ankles and trying to rip the foot out of straight ankles
I've been saying this exact samething at every leglock seminar I've teach!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray
I teach a lot of crushing techniques. Calf crushes are all over and they do hurt, so I start my new guys on the legs crushing.
And the submission gets blamed. When someone straightens their arm to rip out of an armbar, the armbar isn't blamed. When You roll the wrong way on a kimura, it isn't the kimuras fauly your shoulder is fucked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
I've had to let a bunch of leglocks go, because the dude almost broke their shit. Which is shitty, because it leads them to believe their escape works and when you try to tell them differently they take it as you posturing and saving face. But still, I don't want to be the dude breaking knees, let someone meaner teach them that life lesson
Psch what do you know about leglocks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...B12/Xzibit.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Brent Smith
hahaha
Send them over to our gym. Dudes get crazy like brazil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray
And the submission gets blamed. When someone straightens their arm to rip out of an armbar, the armbar isn't blamed. When You roll the wrong way on a kimura, it isn't the kimuras fauly your shoulder is fucked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
I've had to let a bunch of leglocks go, because the dude almost broke their shit. Which is shitty, because it leads them to believe their escape works and when you try to tell them differently they take it as you posturing and saving face. But still, I don't want to be the dude breaking knees, let someone meaner teach them that life lesson
Fuck, I need to stop posting from my phone. Every time I pull up the browser it resends that
me too, so many less knees and ankles go POP!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
im sitting here with my cat on my lap and reading everything in thsi thread. i know believe she knows what to do with leg locks. thanks guys
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Personally, I'm not a fan of new folks using twisting ankle locks at all. I'm also not a fan of using them against new folks. The straight ankle lock, crushes, and knee bars I'm not as worried about. My main issue is that, all too often, new folks are spazzes, and I don't want my ankle spazzed out on, lol. Aside from that, however, I think in some ways using ankle locks too early ignores some very key elements of jits, specifically positional control. One guy I've rolled with for years used to, when he was newer, stand in my open guard, and just dive on an ankle. Since he had no control over my body whatsoever I could simply roll with the pressure and come up on top of him.
Also I'm a big proponent of position before submission, so I like to see newer folks trying to work the pass, as it's such an important part of jits. There's no time too early to start working and developing your passes!
When it comes to using twisting locks on new folks, because they often don't hurt until it's too late, often new people do not recognize the danger they're in. That's not their fault, they just lack the experience/knowledge to recognize what's going on.
When rolling with people I trust, however, I don't have any issues with people dropping back for ankles, this helps keep me aware of the danger.
Which is why learning and drilling the leg lock positions of control are so important. Its not as simple as pinching the knees together, there is an entire system of controlling and isolating the hips.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKRhino
I agree with that, but one thing at a time, lol, and that's a ways up my personal list of foundations to work. That's just my opinion though.