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I'm just curious. When competing are you concerned with the points or just going for the kill period? I know I personally don't worry about points. I don't care about winning if I didn't get the sub. I have gold medals for a few points tournies where I ended up winning by points, but to me they're empty and I don't really count them as a legit win myself because I got them by points. I don't train for points, I train to finish with a sub.
How about you guys? :) Points or Sub?
"Points? We don't need no stinkin' points.." Our gym's philosophy has always been always go for the finish.
I'd rather lose going for a sub than try and win worrying about points. I don't know the last time I won a match on points or was even up on points. Finishers!
Personally I always try and go for the kill, if im in position for points ill pause until I get them though.
In my last 3 tournys ive only had 2 point scored on me and lost because of it, I won all my other matches by sub. Had I swept that guy I would have won...
Thats why naga is awesome you get points for sub attempts
Go for the kill, fuck points. Going for the kill should lead to points anyway so its a win win.
For the most part. The point system makes sense and is relative to obtaining the finish.
I preach position before submission. And if you obtain proper position prior to your submission. You are likely gaining points, because the point system, for the most part, makes sense.
When I compete. The majority of my finishes come after I have built a 7 to 9 point lead. Not only does that put me in a dominant position physically. But my opponent is scrambling to get back in the game. More opportunities to finish are exposed. I also have a sense of pride in saying I was up 9 points to 0 before I ultimately submitted my opponent to take home the 1st place medal.
This is a sport. Not a pissing contest xD
Similar to asking a wrestler if he goes for the takedown or goes for the pin on his way to a state championship..
That's what we teach at our school. If you win by points cool, but we train for the finish and just do our best to get it in the time allotted.
Me too, I never really think about it to be honest. Except for when you're competing against someone and their coach is screaming at them to stall for points.
What if you are a bottom player? Points are given for a lot of dominant positions. Usually I'm the smaller, weaker opponent. I have to count strictly on my game, which is usually all from the bottom. I love spiderweb, gangsta lean, skydive...I like the top game, but I can't expect to always get there in an absolute match against a 200lb chick. It's gonna be lockdown, rubberguard, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by James O'Brien II
Correct, it is a sport. If all you care about is winning, that's awesome, do you. Points all day and a sub if you can get it. I personally want to win for real, a submission. To legitimately get the in a position where they're going to sleep or getting a limb broken...now to me, that is a flipping win.
Well, to be honest James, I have never been to a wrestling state championship. But of course they will have to be on the ground before either person can even get a pin. I would assume they would get the pin ASAP and not stall or try to get in other positions if they're close to getting the pin, or ESP if they have a time limit.
points = boring. go for the sub. I feel like alot of these points guys play the game and there usually the ones afraid of going into all sub tourneys. Im going for the finish!!! Finishers 4 Life
A win is a win in accordance to whatever rules are established in any sport. In BJJ tournaments you know the rules going in so a points win is a "real" win in my opinion. Typically the practitioner that is up on points is showing dominate BJJ anyways, which leads to subs. There are different types of players as well. I know many players that have great submission defense but there offense is sub-par. So they depend on control to win. I do think all tournaments should give points for legit submission attempts.
The bottom line is these tournaments represent a sport competitive setting so the point system is needed.
I see the points especially the side control and mount positional points as places where striking would give you an advantage. A lot is to be said for being on top and able to drop your weight into your strikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tori Applegate
I have done my best in submission only competitions and can't recall the last win I got where I didn't sub someone but personally I want to compete in MMA so the takedown and top game is becoming more and more relevant to me.
Submission! Points is for sissy :)
I'm a 129 lb competitor. So amongst the men. I may have a better understanding of your struggles than most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tori Applegate
I'm not going to set here and say how I've pulled guard, against much larger opponents, and spent 85 percent of the match still on top. Which I have. (Videos in the Forum)
But I would like to say that if you can master your sweeps from guard (lockdown, butterfly, full guard) the larger opponents tend to be weaker off their backs. They tend to be less technical. Scramble. Which exposes them for what you call a "real" win.
I could go into a big long discussion about what a "real" win means to me. Because some of the matches I've won on points have meant more to me than ones I have finished by submission. What I would like to say is that as a fan, and I'm a huge fan of this sport, I happen to compete in this as well. When I look up the results of: Grappler's Quest, NAGA, IBJJF, etc. I simply look for who won. Came in 1st. 2nd. Maybe even 3rd. I don't look at who won by submission. Or who won by points.
The wrestling reference was to emphasize that the competitors involved made it so far and their goals are to win. Also it should emphasize that you have to get your opponent to the ground before you can execute a pin. As you pointed out. Maybe that was too obvious to be a good reference, I'll work on a better one. Haha.
I have a training partner I've been with for years that seems to have the same outlook as you. "I don't care about points, I am just looking for that kill (submission)". To his credit. For the past couple of years. All of his losses have come by losing the points battle. But he hasn't finished a single submission over that span either. Never once won a match on points, obviously.
I'm not saying this applies to you. But for him it reads as an ego problem. "I didn't really lose that match. I just ran out of time" When in reality. Yes you did lose that match. You didn't advance to the next round. You didn't receive the 1st place price. Nor did you compete for the 1st place price. -- Don't be like that guy. Please! (:
Go for the kill! !!!!! ALWAYS!!
It's ok to go for the kill, but it's a game. Games have rules. People are going to exploit the rule sets that govern them. You can't blame a guy for stalling if that is a legitimate way to win under the rule set you are competing in. If you don't like points, don't compete in points tournaments.
Getting upset about points losses is like being up set that a football game was won by a team that just kicked field goals the whole game. Who cares if they couldn't get a touchdown, they won within their given ability to do so.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't play for subs. It just negates any complaints about strategy.
SUB OR GO HOME!!!! A win is a win but it's definitely more gratifying to win by submission then points. when I compete I try to think position before submission just as a back up plan, but my goal is not to stall but to end with the kill.
My mind set when I go into competition is this
-Get The Takedown
-Pass the guard
-Finish
If I get Taken down
-Regain Guard
-Don't let them pass
-Sweep To Top
-Stay on bottom
-Finish
Points to me don't matter but if you're not passing my guard. You're not submitting me. If I'm not passing your guard I'm not submitting you. It's always about the finish, but at the same time it's about where I'm at and how I can get to a better position with a little bit of effort. Always go for the finish though, it leaves no doubt that you Are the better practitioner. Anyone can argue advantage or points. You can't argue getting subbed.
I agree, not good to make it an ego problem. If I don't get the sub I feel like I lost for sure. I could see how being on top will make people scramble. Just depends on who you are up against and how good your top game is. There are plenty of entertaining matches won by points I'm sure. But man, when I was watching Metamoris II, I know I was disappointed when a lot of them didn't finish, but they've decided to proclaim a winner, basically by points now. They're important I suppose in the case that there is no finish.
not all wins are the same guys,
its a very different feeling when you slaughter an opponent and win in 15 seconds as opposed to a 10 min battle where you win because you passed guard once and held side. Do you want to be a 27 time world champ via advantage points or sub victories.
I want to have my skill be at the pinnacle of the sport, I want to be the best that I can be and to me that means finishing in comps.
I think that you compete how you train and if you like dragging people into 20 min battles you probably wont finish lots in comp, sometimes at my gym we set goals for sparing like: finish in under 2 min, choose a position and you win if you hold it until the timer ends, pick a submission and get it from any position, pick a specific move and hit it as many times, one person is allowed to finish and starts in a good position and the other can just defend subs but not escape, sometimes the goal is just to make a joke and make your opponent laugh
Sometimes in matches people just throw and get side and try and hold it with all they have, I think that's a very good skill to have and a very important aspect of grappling but at the same time get just as good at controlling spiderweb as mount and you'll finish people
When I see people choose not to attempt submission I assume that they are not complete grapplers because they are afraid that if they try anything that they will lose control and lose the match, for me I want to be better then my opponent everywhere I want it so that once I isolate your arm your on a slippery slope that ends in my victory
i agree advance position and subQuote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
This shouldn't even be up for discussion points are holding Jiu Jitsu back finishers all day
As a pure Ronin, I go to tourneys without any coach, so I have no idea what the score is, and always go for the sub. It's the only way I roll.
if you rolling for points you not rolling the right way,
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike May
I love winning. Whether my win comes from points, sub, advantage or refs decision, it all means the same to me. The satisfaction I get from the win depends on how good my opponent was, not on how I won.
"The satisfaction I get from the win depends on how good my opponent was, not on how I won." -- Justin W.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin W.
I like that!
Going for the sub is my preference. It's cost me before in competition, but that's to be expected somewhat. It really depends on what is more important to you; winning the match or defeating your opponent. They're not always the same thing.
All competitors go through this. Here's the real deal. You can control how you try to win, but you can't control your opponents. So even if you don't care about points, you will def run in to players who destroy with them. There lies the problem. How do you deal with a solid grappler, who gets up on points, then is perfectly fine with shelling up and not taking another chance until he wins. Stalling or meta-stalling. Doing just enough without doing anything. This is where the real frustration with points comes. You felt in no danger, but make no doubt, you lost. And if they could execute that game plan, they were better than you in that game. Even if you don't care about point, the people you will lose to do. Losing sucks. Learn to grapple for points just to be able to counter that opponent.
Like Blake and Sean said. Gotta be rules, so know what you're signing up for. And if you're gonna sign up might as well try to win.
If your gonna win by points smash them until you a gentlemens agreement. That's like submitting them in a way :). Other than submission finishes. Always looks to progress towards the submission with the submission in mind. With progression comes points and the intent to finish will score you points. Points should always be thought of after getting the submission.
I don't see the point in training for a competition, paying a hundred dollars for it and then sometimes having to drive several hours to the venue if you're not there to finish. I want to submit every opponent I compete against, as fast as possible, regardless of whether I'm winning or losing on points. The ultimate goal to me, is to roll in tournaments the same way I do in the gym. Sacrificing top position for a potential finish, never stalling and just generally having a good time. :)
I like this outlook sir. Very solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin Lambert
Tournaments that award points for submission attempts, like NAGA, are only awarding you for failing. The award for a submission attempt should be a submission victory.
NAGA gives you points for failing. . .
See you this weekend, NAGA. Grr.
I am the type of competitor that knows what is realistic and when I go for a submission. Which I always do. Just at the perfect time. I finish that submission more times than they escape. -- I finish a lot more than they escape my submission attempts actually. I keep in mind I don't want to go for a poor submission and burn my arms out. Etc.
Sounds like you're the man.
Lol. Sorry. I was kind of talking to myself.
I wanted to bring up the point that NAGA awards you for failing at submissions.
I've never competed at NAGA before. I'll be there this weekend though.
I'm just curious to see if this style of scoring will effect me.
jiu jitsu was founded on being submission only, thats why all the gracies wound up with hour long matches because they thought fuck points as well.
I believe their applications were more self defense oriented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonrivello
Sport Jiu-Jitsu. Points are awesome.
Like: How many points would Matt Hughes have gotten for the position he scored on Royce Gracie??
What division will you be entering James?
129.9 lb Men's NoGi Expert DivisionQuote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers