Points or subs ??

What do you consider yourself ?



I know for a fact I'm a submission fighter/ hunter. I give up position in a match for a sub. It might cost me the match entirely. I don't train for points.. I do think both work hand in hand though. I think when hunting for subs points come along with that but.. How many times have you really let go and just went for it? I think this is where the true beauty of competition lies ..f@ck wins or losses. I don't do this for a record. I do this because my body is still able, and I as a person .. am willing. Where do you fit ..points or subs ?

Subs. All day every day!

I go for the Kill!

Subs for sure. Getting a sub gives you a thrill..if I win by points it's just ehh. We don't train for points at our gym.

When I'm inside someone's guard.

I don't waste time trying to pass.

I sub 'em.

xD

again?

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

again?

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My thoughts exactly. Lol.

http://www.10thplanetjj.com/threads/...go-for-the-Sub

Sorry John, just did this post a few days ago so if you get a few people saying again? ..that's why and here's the thread as well. It had some good replies also.

I'm looking for sub. If I lose by points I don't count that as a loss. It is a loss but I didn't get caught or give up and defended well against sub attempts. Only time I look for points is second round takedown then I look for subs or 3rd round takedown wins. Ill hunt the shit out of subs and constantly try to set something up

I prefer AO tournaments myself

Eddie knows whats up!

I always look for the finish

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Originally Posted by eddie bravo

i prefer ao tournaments myself

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ao ??

I'm guessing advantage only lol

Not sure if anyone heard the new podcast but shout out to alder from van Nuys with the classic quote " it's not about how many numbers you get but whether or not you can take them home and close the deal". Science!!!

I just train to try to outgrapple people. Obviously the submission is the goal, but since that usually follows from positional dominance that means points usually come first.

I think there's a big thing going on where people think you're either a points player or a submission player. You have some people that will sacrifice losing/points to go for a submission like Bill Cooper. But most good grapplers will try to get a dominant position and finish. Cooper is my #1 favorite grappler so I don't mean that as a diss.

Points tournaments can have flaws but so can sub only tournaments. If you get swept, passed, mounted, and have your back taken and you catch some crazy footlock and win in sub only, that doesn't mean you were a better grappler than your opponent. That's no different than winning by an advantage, it's just on the other side of the coin.

People say jiu jitsu is all about the submission. It's not. That's like saying boxing is all about the knockout. That's the goal, and that's the ideal outcome. But there's more to it.

Metamoris 2 was a submission only tournament and was mostly way more boring than the finals of the Worlds the weekend before. Less submissions too. Sub only is great, but it's not the only way to see great submissions.

Edit: Prokopos vs. Rader was an awesome sub only match!

I have to disagree, if I am getting raped and catch them in a footlock and tap him, its not like winning by an advantage, its a ballsy ass attempt to win the fight like it should be won, by submission, doesnt matter how.

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Originally Posted by James O'Brien II

When I'm inside someone's guard.

I don't waste time trying to pass.

I sub 'em.

xD

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Awesome! You using leglocks? I love leglocks myself and I would like to know how and what you do inside there. Especially if your having alot of success. If your subbing people with something else then I also would like check that out.

Scott he is being sarcastic haha

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Originally Posted by Jonrivello

Scott he is being sarcastic haha

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...Well shit. I was all about seeing some wild stuff from inside guard.

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Originally Posted by Jonrivello

I have to disagree, if I am getting raped and catch them in a footlock and tap him, its not like winning by an advantage, its a ballsy ass attempt to win the fight like it should be won, by submission, doesnt matter how.

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let me clarify.

I'm just saying that if you pull some footlock out of your ass after you've been swept, passed, mounted, and had your back taken, you got outgrappled. You got your ass kicked. If they leave their ankles crossed and you get that little footlock on them it's not like you're some superior grappler in that situation. You won, but it it's not some huge victory. It means you threw a hail mary and it landed.

An advantage victory is a silly victory too, and I think advantages are stupid. Points are fine, advantages are stupid. It's dumb to get rewarded for "almost" doing something.

I could have made a better analogy so sorry about that.

Prefer Subs

I mean would anyone really be more satisfied with winning by points?Would you rather do a layup or a dunk?

If you lose on points or advantage it's not black and white like a sub. Submissions are our touchdowns in my opinion. Who's to say that if there wasn't another minute you wouldn't have subbed the other guy.If you get swept and mounted and dude takes your back and you get the ankle lock because he crosses his feet I think the guy with the right answers in the moment won, and dude on the back made a mental mistake.. Isn't that where the whole it's not losing it's learning mentality comes from ??

I like subbing people because when I beat someone in a tournament I don't want them to be able to say "all he did was hold me" "if only I got that sweep 1 second quicker" "I lost the submission when the ref pulled us back into the middle" "i could have won if I...." "next time.." "the ref didn't give me the points when I..."

submissions only for a 1000 Alex +)

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Originally Posted by Angel.Cruz

submissions only for a 1000 Alex +)

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+1

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Originally Posted by Ryan Brick

I like subbing people because when I beat someone in a tournament I don't want them to be able to say "all he did was hold me" "if only I got that sweep 1 second quicker" "I lost the submission when the ref pulled us back into the middle" "i could have won if I...." "next time.." "the ref didn't give me the points when I..."

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People will say these things either way. A lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.

The guy with the best jiu jitsu doesn't always win. So catching a leg lock after you got dominated by points means just as much as any win. Often times, especially at the lower levels, you see specialists. Guys with one really good position or submission. They often times dominate at tournaments because, for example, they have a purple belt level guard game and are still blue. These guys are often times a lot less skilled over all, but if you walk in there you're done.

To say just because you won a match at a tournament makes you a better player is silly. It just means you had the right answer that day.

This doesn't mean the better player never wins.

I play sub only. I don't even know how the points or advantages work, and when people try to explain them to me I plug my ears and say LALALALALALALALALAAAAAA! till they stop.
I don't care about points or advantages.

That being said, I have only fought one tourney so far and I was only 3 months into jitz: Won 1 fight with sub, lost two fights via subs. S'all good. I am ready now to enter more tourneys, but I won't have time until the winter realistically.

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

People will say these things either way. A lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.

The guy with the best jiu jitsu doesn't always win. So catching a leg lock after you got dominated by points means just as much as any win. Often times, especially at the lower levels, you see specialists. Guys with one really good position or submission. They often times dominate at tournaments because, for example, they have a purple belt level guard game and are still blue. These guys are often times a lot less skilled over all, but if you walk in there you're done.

To say just because you won a match at a tournament makes you a better player is silly. It just means you had the right answer that day.

This doesn't mean the better player never wins.

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I understand that the better player doesnt always win, you can get crushed and then come back and get a sub and be proud of that

But I dont think all wins are the same. I want Eddie to win his rematch in minute 1 not minute 19.

If this was golf for example I dont want to be losing and then you hit a sand trap and I win I want to win because I scored 9 holes in one. Is getting 9 holes in one realistic? No. Is my goal of destroying everyone in tournaments realistic? No.

But thats just it, its a goal I set it high because if I achive even 1/9th of my goal it means I got a hole in one.

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

People will say these things either way. A lion doesn't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.

The guy with the best jiu jitsu doesn't always win. So catching a leg lock after you got dominated by points means just as much as any win. Often times, especially at the lower levels, you see specialists. Guys with one really good position or submission. They often times dominate at tournaments because, for example, they have a purple belt level guard game and are still blue. These guys are often times a lot less skilled over all, but if you walk in there you're done.

To say just because you won a match at a tournament makes you a better player is silly. It just means you had the right answer that day.

This doesn't mean the better player never wins.

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I don't disagree. i was never trying to say that losing to someone in a competition means you're worse than they are. I don't believe that at all.

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Originally Posted by john botello

If you lose on points or advantage it's not black and white like a sub. Submissions are our touchdowns in my opinion. Who's to say that if there wasn't another minute you wouldn't have subbed the other guy.If you get swept and mounted and dude takes your back and you get the ankle lock because he crosses his feet I think the guy with the right answers in the moment won, and dude on the back made a mental mistake.. Isn't that where the whole it's not losing it's learning mentality comes from ??

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I agree with this. It's a game of chess. Maybe you're not a fan of ankle locks and think they're a BS sub, I personally hate wrist locks..they're sneaky..lol. But a sub is a sub and that day at that time, he got you and he won.

Sweep, pass, trap, defend, control, submit. No particular order. Everything else is collateral.

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Originally Posted by Ryan Brick

I understand that the better player doesnt always win, you can get crushed and then come back and get a sub and be proud of that

But I dont think all wins are the same. I want Eddie to win his rematch in minute 1 not minute 19.

If this was golf for example I dont want to be losing and then you hit a sand trap and I win I want to win because I scored 9 holes in one. Is getting 9 holes in one realistic? No. Is my goal of destroying everyone in tournaments realistic? No.

But thats just it, its a goal I set it high because if I achive even 1/9th of my goal it means I got a hole in one.

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I agree with a lot of what you said lol. I only meant the very first part of my post for you. Sorry my friend.

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

I agree with a lot of what you said lol. I only meant the very first part of my post for you. Sorry my friend.

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its ok lol I wanted to make a golf reference anyway :P