Rubber Guard has a Weight Limit (Video)

Yesterday I found myself in the Gold Medal Match for the Men's Advanced Absolute NoGi Division.
(Video Below)

The stats:

I'm about 5'4" tall.
Typically I compete at 124 to 129.9 lbs
Black Belt Flexibility, I can Full Lotus on both sides.
Meaning I can have either my right leg over my left or my left leg over my right while in Full Lotus.
I've had this flexibility as far back as I can remember. And when I began using the rubber guard in 2007,
I focused more on improving this flexibility.

I would estimate my opponent at over 200 lbs. Because I can typically lock up Rubber Guard positions on training partners of mine that walk around at about 195 lbs.

The Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4zlJ...ature=youtu.be

The issue occurred while transition to Crackhead Control

I felt no strain during Mission Control, maybe I was in New York, I can't really tell if the hand was on the mat.

Even during the transition to Crackhead Control I felt no strain.

I heard a loud pop and was confused until I realized my knee had dislocated.

Scary Shit... I hope you have a speedy recovery.

And then... Did you get it back in your self? Did you go to the hospital? how does it feel now? Props to your opponent for recognizing you had a problem and backing off.

That sucks man. :-/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

And then... Did you get it back in your self? Did you go to the hospital? how does it feel now? Props to your opponent for recognizing you had a problem and backing off.

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I'm sure it goes without saying, but it dislocated to the outside.
I did get it to go back in myself. I was advised by the medic to get it looked at if it began to swell.
I've been on a steady diet of Ibuprofen and ice to speed up the recovery process.
I've been keeping a close eye on my knee trying not to test it much.
Though it appears weak in the range that it had dislocated. (Pressure coming from the inside out)
Soreness on the outside of my knee, though jiujitsu has taught me a lot about my body, and I feel I can be playing Rubber Guard again withing the next 2 or 3 months. Just against smaller opponents (:

I almost wasn’t going to post on this because I’m not trying to make you upset right after this... but… with respect, the angle you use in rubberguard scares me. It LOOKS to me (and what do I know over a video?) like that angle uses the ligaments of your knee to hold the guys posture down instead of you inside leg muscles (abductors?) and hip turn. Basically, I play with a touch more angle and even though I’m usually flat or nearly so there is a slight pressure turning to my side (yes even in mission control). (also note that I'm talking about two different things with "angle" and "on my side". One is like a "flower sweep" or "the toss" and the other is like a shrimp put very underdone.) I apologize if this was not clear or does not work for you.
I mention my observations because now, once you’ve injured it once, it may be important to keep safe angles even with smaller opponents.
Have a speedy recovery and props to you for entering absolute at that weight :)

Ok, I'm a black belt in knee injuries.. no.. purple belt! :) (Not that grave injuries, but the one I had almost made me invalid)
So here's what I believe to be some valuable advice. it starts with a short story.

Back when I did Taekwon do, we had all sorts of stretches, some identical to 10'th stretches. Butterfly stretch, lotus and the sort.
I repeadetly pivoted wrong when kicking, (leg too straight, no tension in the knee, lead to rotational injury), and had no respect for my knees when stretching. Doing this for three years made my knee loose. (left knee)

I started karate, and during a nightly Kyokushin exercise that was pretty brutal, my knee blew out. It dislocated when walking, when sitting, when watching TV..The shinbone actually went one way, and the knee another. I almost made a guy at a party puke when I showed him, haha.. It was so bad I had to stay in bed for weeks, I couldn't walk on it.

The tendon was not ripped, but permanently elongated. (ACL)

My recovery took years. I did one week of fasting to rid myself of the inflamation. 3 months of ankle weights, very light, just sitting on a stool, doing repetitions.

Started rolling instead of kicking. Started strongman exrcises, and as my knee was 50%, I started light deadlifts. (Which eventually became max lifts)
3 years went by, and my knees were not only repaired, they were bulletproof! ;)

Later I discover 10'th, and I'm thinking.. "No way I'll be able to do this" But I loved the system, so I went for it.

I've had no knee problems at all. I can't get my feet behind my head yet, but I can heelhook myself, do lotus, all of that stuff. I had to work myself up to that, but I knew that proper warmup, and avoiding too much stress on the ligaments might get me there, and I was right. Which brings me to my advice:

Be very very careful with stretching the ligaments and tendons! Angle in rubber guard, as previously stated, hug the knee to eliviate pressure on it when doing rubber guard.

-When stretching, always focus on letting the hip give in, stretching the muscle and tendon in the hip. Wait until the hip relaxes and starts to give in befor going further. That's where 99% of the flexibilty comes from.
As Eddie states, you need flexibility in the knees as well, but if you can do lotus, as far as I'm concerned, that's all the knee flexibility you need. There's a fine line between proper knee flexibility and a bum knee.

If one knows this, and avoids the danger zones, it's no problem. If one forgets it, or didn't know it, it can lead to injury. And those types of injuries take a long time to heal.

Now; I'd definitely would go check if the ACL is ok. And if it's ok, it's probable that the tendon is elongated. Start recovery exercises, but listen to your doc more than me. They are experts.

More advice:
Green tea helps with inflamation. Alcohol, nicotine and coffee makes it worse. (if there's inflamation or water in the knee)

Running stabilizes the knee, paradoxally enough, but only if you run using proper technique, short steps, putting the foot down right under you, absorbing the impact with the ball of the foot. Three steps per second, short strides. The hip extendors and butt provides the power. Run as flat as possible, not much bobbing up and down.

If you do look into running as a means of tightening the knees up, I'd check out instructionals on barefoot running. (You don't have to run barefoot, just learn how to run with the least amount of stress on your legs)

Walking stairs is also good. And when running, uphill running strengthens the knees more than just running on flat ground.

You probably know half of, or all of this, but I just put it out there if you need advice! :) Or for those out there that are forcing their flexibility too much. "Never force a stretch" -I think that's what the yoga people say.

Not meant as criticism, or making you seem like a dummy, just my personal expirience from a very troubled time in my life, lol!
I hope you make a speedy recovery! You seem like you are pretty crafty on the mats, so it's a shame to see you out with an injury.

Edit: Running and deadlifts are late in the process.. ! I wouldn't start running now.

For what it's worth, what I saw was that you were trying to stop the stack and pressure with you lower leg. Whenever I roll with large pressure style grapplers, I focus on the pressure of my upper leg pushing out and the lower leg pushing down (hard leg curls) to constantly threaten the shrimp and force the angle. Super important to this is keeping the hip, thigh, shin angles as close to centerline as possible, and letting the crackhead leg come WAY high before going up and over to double leg curls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

I almost wasn’t going to post on this because I’m not trying to make you upset right after this... but… with respect, the angle you use in rubberguard scares me. It LOOKS to me (and what do I know over a video?) like that angle uses the ligaments of your knee to hold the guys posture down instead of you inside leg muscles (abductors?) and hip turn. Basically, I play with a touch more angle and even though I’m usually flat or nearly so there is a slight pressure turning to my side (yes even in mission control). (also note that I'm talking about two different things with "angle" and "on my side". One is like a "flower sweep" or "the toss" and the other is like a shrimp put very underdone.) I apologize if this was not clear or does not work for you.
I mention my observations because now, once you’ve injured it once, it may be important to keep safe angles even with smaller opponents.
Have a speedy recovery and props to you for entering absolute at that weight :)

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Thanks for your input.
I understand your comments are intended for a better and safer future.

I'm sure most of what you said may sound like a foreign language to some.
I know exactly what you are referring to. I too practice this angle you speak of.
I think I was 1st introduced to it during the All-Stars DVD several years back.

It may be hard to tell over video, as you hinted at, but I typically use both of my legs to create a superior angle.
For example. Left foot on the hip to create space for my right foot on the hip, at the same time using that left foot to scoot my hips to my left, basically laying on my right buttocks, or right hip. The right foot at this point would be used to maintain the angle created or help re-create it.

In this match I was only able to get a slight angle. Typically that is good enough. Though if you notice the size difference seemed to create a problem. As he could literally cup the top of my shoulders while his elbows were pinned to the top of his knees. Then with his slight movements and posture he was able to easily eliminate the the angles I was attempting to achieve.

I understand that from pictures and videos you can't quite gauge someones size. As for me. I'm 5'4" and not long-limbed by any stretch of the imagination.

Brian, from matches, and pictures I've seen of you. I can tell you have incredibly long limbs. Though you may be relatively light for your frame. I think my problems here came with limb length vs size. I would assume that you would not lose your ability to play rubber guard as your opponents moved up in size. I'm thinking you could rubber guard Ho Man Choi?!

You touched on a great point. Emphasize angles. Especially if you want to play Rubber Guard on larger opponents.
What I learned most about this match is in this situation I should play a more "base entanglement" style when faced with these physical disadvantages. Look to take the back, look to entangle the base of my opponent with half guard, and other similar positions.

Thanks again for your comment, Brian!

hate to hear this. heal up.

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I am by no means a rubber guard player but do read alot and remember Kruzy had a post awhile ago about knee pain and it was posted in there that i believe no time should your foot be closer to your head that your knee is I might be wrong but if thats the case it looked to me as that your pulling your foot down to you when in mission past the line of your knee again I might be wrong just hoping it might give you something to look into. I will try to find the link and post it for you if possible.

http://www.10thplanetjj.com/threads/...ight=knee+pain

I watched the video again and does look like when he went to stack it pushed you foot way up close to you but I'm not sure just hoping this might be another area for you to look into to prevent it from happening again heal up fast i just also hurt my knee but was my mcl on the inside and i have been out about 3 weeks now so i feel your pain.

I don't think rubber guard has a weight limit because I have done rubber guard on people that have at least 100 pounds over me . But once you heal you should do yoga if you are not already . Lotus is a good hip opener but there are a lot more advance ones to try

wow I just saw the pop (finally had a moment) and WOW. Props to the opponent for holding back for sure, and good thing the ref came in too. Def take it easy man, see the doctor, and we'll all be praying for your return.

Excellent post Joachim! A lot of useful experience there.

Thank you!
It was a long and strenous road back to normal life after that recovery. It's nothing compared to some people's injuries, but it was scary as hell to me. '-'
A long ass post, but I'm thinking; if there's anything in there that can help someone, it's worth putting it out there. It took me a lot of experimenting to figure out what worked and what did not. the doctors were hopeless, they just did some basic tests, not much help or advice on recovery.
I guess they'd give a shit if I was a star athlete or something, haha. :}

Hey James, I watched the video and I will say, you have your knee waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low for having your foot hiked up that high. You need to get that knee hugged up to alleviate some of the pressure off the knee joint or your are going to be a crippled old man.
I was noticing some serious pain and strain in my left knee from playing a lot of RG as my homie David Hamp mentioned and linked above, and once I took the advice and started really working on keeping my knee as high or higher than my foot, all the problems disappeared.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurzy

Hey James, I watched the video and I will say, you have your knee waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low for having your foot hiked up that high. You need to get that knee hugged up to alleviate some of the pressure off the knee joint or your are going to be a crippled old man.
I was noticing some serious pain and strain in my left knee from playing a lot of RG as my homie David Hamp mentioned and linked above, and once I took the advice and started really working on keeping my knee as high or higher than my foot, all the problems disappeared.

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Glad your knee is feeling better!

Datch rubber gward will ruin your knees