me no are no nice guy (sparring etiquette)

Ok guys, this whole issue continues to be a mystery to me. Tell me if I'm right or wrong…

1. I give a new white belt room to work and let him sink in an RNC. Instead of hitting my high percentage defense I try out a new one knowing it might not work and I might have to tap. I tap… Have I confused my training partner or done him a disservice? Am I not repping my rank?

2. I catch a guy two ranks above me in a heel hook and he looks PANICKED. Out of respect (not safety in this instance) I release it. Have I shown the dude respect or should I finish the sub?

3. Intensity… I generally adapt myself to the other guy but this sometimes means I am rolling below a level that I feel is actually making me better and might actually be reinforcing bad habits. What to do?

Thanks- any light you can shed on this would be most welcome.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Bergdorf

Ok guys, this whole issue continues to be a mystery to me. Tell me if I'm right or wrong…

1. I give a new white belt room to work and let him sink in an RNC. Instead of hitting my high percentage defense I try out a new one knowing it might not work and I might have to tap. I tap… Have I confused my training partner or done him a disservice? Am I not repping my rank?

2. I catch a guy two ranks above me in a heel hook and he looks PANICKED. Out of respect (not safety in this instance) I release it. Have I shown the dude respect or should I finish the sub?

3. Intensity… I generally adapt myself to the other guy but this sometimes means I am rolling below a level that I feel is actually making me better and might actually be reinforcing bad habits. What to do?

Thanks- any light you can shed on this would be most welcome.

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1. Be careful about how much room you give other people to work. I used to do the same, thinking I was being helpful, only later to realize that a lot of people thought I was just not very good. It's still good to be helpful but just do it in the right ways. For example, if you want to let someone work side control, let them start from there. But don't let them pass your guard. It's a bad habit that will come back to bite you. It might not sound like much, but letting someone pass your guard is muscle memory that will come back during tough rolls later on.

2. It depends on the etiquette of your gym. I would be annoyed at a blue belt trying to heel hook me for real, and typically I don't trust anyone under purple when it comes to heel hooks. But I would be more annoyed at them going for one and then stopping because "Hey man I am respecting that you're a higher belt." Not sure. Again, your gym culture is your gym culture. It seems more disrespectful to me, to only let go "out of respect". If you're going to actually crank heel hooks instead of doing catch and release, you might as well actually go for it. Either do them catch and release, full on, or don't do them. But pick one and decide. That's my 2 cents there. Whatever you choose, just know that heel hooks are a pandora's box, and once you start going for heel hooks on people that are possibly better than you, don't be surprised if you get heel hooked back just as hard.

3. Don't reinforce bad habits. Your gut is probably right. Adjusting intensity is fine and it cane be done without sacrificing quality, but if you feel it's below a level that's going to make you improve then you shouldn't so it. That goes back to the muscle memory stuff. I did this for a long time and it only hurt me in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

1. Be careful about how much room you give other people to work. I used to do the same, thinking I was being helpful, only later to realize that a lot of people thought I was just not very good. It's still good to be helpful but just do it in the right ways. For example, if you want to let someone work side control, let them start from there. But don't let them pass your guard. It's a bad habit that will come back to bite you. It might not sound like much, but letting someone pass your guard is muscle memory that will come back during tough rolls later on.

2. It depends on the etiquette of your gym. I would be annoyed at a blue belt trying to heel hook me for real, and typically I don't trust anyone under purple when it comes to heel hooks. But I would be more annoyed at them going for one and then stopping because "Hey man I am respecting that you're a higher belt." Not sure. Again, your gym culture is your gym culture. It seems more disrespectful to me, to only let go "out of respect". If you're going to actually crank heel hooks instead of doing catch and release, you might as well actually go for it. Either do them catch and release, full on, or don't do them. But pick one and decide. That's my 2 cents there. Whatever you choose, just know that heel hooks are a pandora's box, and once you start going for heel hooks on people that are possibly better than you, don't be surprised if you get heel hooked back just as hard.

3. Don't reinforce bad habits. Your gut is probably right. Adjusting intensity is fine and it cane be done without sacrificing quality, but if you feel it's below a level that's going to make you improve then you shouldn't so it. That goes back to the muscle memory stuff. I did this for a long time and it only hurt me in the long run.

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That helps a lot especially the muscle memory aspect of it. Heel hook was a bad example… substitute any submission.

If the whitebelt is executing technique let him work it, but add proper resistance sometimes shut it down so they know the counters. Say he is going for dog fight but doesnt get double unders, crush the fuck out of him. You dont want to let people work bad habits.

At the same time If you never try your new RNC escape youll never get bluebelt level at it, if he taps you it just means your not a bluebelt at that move not in general.

To add onto what Mike said if you allow people to work there game everytime it will go to there head, and anyone new watching will think less of you. Yesterday one of my whitebelts was going for what I taught in class, i let it work. Then later one of my other whitebelts comes up and says "im surprised sanjay tapped you, because sanjay has never tapped me" then you are left sitting there an do you put down your student and say i just let it work and seem like a dick or do you just let this guy think less of you?

Man if you get a purplebelt in a sub take it. Take it everytime, he should know how to escape. It also possible he let you get him in one so he could practice his new escape, similar to you and the whitebelt

Thats my opinion, im interested to see what the other moon heads say

Hope it helps :-)

1. Experiment: go ahead and tap and learn. You're technically training, so it's okay to experiment. How else are you gonna know whether something will work or not, if you aren't getting LIVE feedback.

2. Heel hook crank or not: As much as you'd love to prove a point, you should learn to submit your opponent without breaking their stuff. If you're at a point where they just aren't going to tap, and the sub is sunk and you know it, take a mental note and let it go. Injured training partners means less to play with. Of course if it's a choke, put em to sleep. Anything that'll break a bone, I typically get them to submit, verbally, or touch-n-go.

3. Intensity and adapting: Hopefully you have a variety of guys available to roll with, and not only white belts. In any case, it goes back to learning and experimenting. It'll be a good time to practice techniques you're experimenting with. Those techs may not work on higher level guys but you won't perfect em unless you put your reps in. So start off simple and see if it works for white belts, and then test on blues, then purples, etc. What you can to as well is put yourself in bad positions, and perfect your defense against the white belt, and follow through to the submission.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Bergdorf

Ok guys, this whole issue continues to be a mystery to me. Tell me if I'm right or wrong…

1. I give a new white belt room to work and let him sink in an RNC. Instead of hitting my high percentage defense I try out a new one knowing it might not work and I might have to tap. I tap… Have I confused my training partner or done him a disservice? Am I not repping my rank?

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That's a good question. You don't want some new guy to go around telling people "yeah, im tapping out a bunch of blue and purple belts at the gym already." It could not only make you look bad, but your gym as well. However, you want new people to gain some confidence and enjoyment out rolling so they dont quit during that initial (1-6 months?) learning phase. I could be wrong.

Mike makes a good point about not getting in the mindset of letting people pass.

New guys are like a box of chocolates.. Some are timid and need coaxing and encouragement, while others feel like a Tuesday open mat is the Kumite. My feel out process is staying protected and control of the inside space, till I recognize which I'm dealing with. Until I know them and there attitude, I try to do my best and show( let them feel) what jj is all about. I technically dismantle them. Bout halfway through the round, if I wanna let them work, I will talk them through an escape from a dominant position or sub attempt. If they keep showing up and have a good attitude, we can play. Until then, I establish dominance on behalf of good technical jj. If you start capitalizing on positions and endangering me in a position I let you have, you're gonna see it a lot less.

Eddie's deadzone drills pretty much does this in itself. It saves everybody from their own ego, and makes everybody start in badspots, then flip to goodspots. Its fair and forces you to let them work. Its a drill, so tapping isn't such an ego stomp.

As for tapping higher belts, go for it. But get ready for a 'smirk and a smash' after. I will do anything I can not to tap to lower belts. I'll let them catch me, but then defend and try to escape 100%. My ego's just not there yet..

IMO...
1.Be technical at all times, stay tight. Let them get you in a dominant position, then stay tight, let them try to crack you open, then when they make a mistake, and they will...escape in a technical fashion. Then show them your skills, you get in a dominant position and get some reps on your set ups & subs. That's how I play it with the newer guys. Like Rick said, it makes your defense more solid letting them get you in a dominant position then defending and working your way out.

2. Finish it. Either he made the mistake of letting you work and let you work too far, all the way to the sub. In that case, his mistake. He never should've let you get that deep.

3. I always roll hard so I'm prob not the one to take advice from in this aspect. I suggest you find a few people you can really turn it up on. I'm the smallest of the bunch so I get away with being aggressive..overly sometimes, but I'm also a serious competitor. We have a lot of people trying to compete and get really good at our gym so while I'm probably the most aggressive, others are working on their smashing, trying to find ways to make me miserable and put pressure on me. Find the more intense guys. For the ones that are not so intense, find a specific technique or pass, etc. that you want to aim for in that roll with them and get some reps in. Make it where it's not boring for you and they have to be active.

If I am playing with a new guy, I will reward him for properly executed technique. Or if he's really new, I might even reward him for a good idea.

For instance, if he is in bottom half guard and he is working for an underhook and to get to his side, I will generally allow him to have it. As he improves over time, I amp up the resistance. Eventually, he has to be able to take the underhook or he will be crushed into the dirt.

Slick Rick is the man. Also Brandon Mccaghren

I would add to the answers above:
1. If somebody is like brand new (less than 3 months) I'll give them a little bit of resistance, but if what they are doing is technically sound, I'll let them eventually suceed (eg: new guy gets put into side control, if they t-rex good and tight and shrimp like they are supposed to I'll let them out. They may have to struggle, but I'll let them escape, albeit with a little more resistance from me the next time.) I figure its kind of like training a pet. Positive re-inforcement for good behavior (shrimping, t-rexing) and negative re-inforcement (shoulders of justice, crushing their soul ala Brandon Mccaghren, anything else non-douchey that comes to mind to just help them realize "what you are doing is not a good idea") for spazzy behavior.

2. Was he spazzing out because you were breaking "da rules" or because he couldn't handle being caught by a lower belt? If it was the former either dont' do the heel hook anymore and opt to attack with a "safer" technique or don't roll with him anymore. If it is the latter and you legit caught him, it means either A) you have exposed a hole in his game and you need to continue to do so for him to either evolve or die or B) your game is getting tighter and you need to continue on your path to mastery, brother!

3. Having some people you can just absolutely go to war with on a nightly basis is awesome and is definitely needed to up your game, but so are the people you can smash. If you can steamroll somebody and neither of you are getting anything from the roll, stop using your A-game and start putting in the reps on your B-, C-, and D- game. Absolute annihilation on the mat for a noobie (and even some more experienced people I've heard) is a sure-fire way snub someone's interest in grappling. I'm sure bruised and battered egos have ended more jiu jitsu journies than torn shoulders, knees, ankles and backs combined.

Note. I'm taking into account collegiate wrestlers, linebackers, trad martial artists, and crossfitters.
At my old gym we had drop ins all the time of a guy looking to test himself. And he wants to do it today. He's prepped for this ultimate test, and you're on your 6th straight day of training(including 40hrs work) and just in your routine. You have to have a plan for this. Many people are natural athletes with strong backgrounds other than jj. These are the issues. Not the guy that finally took time away from his corporate investment banking career to do the first discipline ever. They are the ones you need to pull to the side and drill with before they can even begin to freeroll properly. But many need to see the truth and on a consistent basis. At least from somebody. You can dismantle, without smashing or pain, although I do love to smash, but remind them that the only difference is reps and mat time. If they get frustrated by being completely technically controlled and quit, well that's a common story. Jj isn't for them. Learn how to smash and inspire simultaneously.

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Originally Posted by Ryan Brick

To add onto what Mike said if you allow people to work there game everytime it will go to there head, and anyone new watching will think less of you. Yesterday one of my whitebelts was going for what I taught in class, i let it work. Then later one of my other whitebelts comes up and says "im surprised sanjay tapped you, because sanjay has never tapped me" then you are left sitting there an do you put down your student and say i just let it work and seem like a dick or do you just let this guy think less of you?

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I'd respond to the second student by explaining that there is no winning or losing on this mat, and that the point of rolling is not to tap people out, but for you, AND your rolling partner to get better.

That's my take on it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Bergdorf

Ok guys, this whole issue continues to be a mystery to me. Tell me if I'm right or wrong…

1. I give a new white belt room to work and let him sink in an RNC. Instead of hitting my high percentage defense I try out a new one knowing it might not work and I might have to tap. I tap… Have I confused my training partner or done him a disservice? Am I not repping my rank?

2. I catch a guy two ranks above me in a heel hook and he looks PANICKED. Out of respect (not safety in this instance) I release it. Have I shown the dude respect or should I finish the sub?

3. Intensity… I generally adapt myself to the other guy but this sometimes means I am rolling below a level that I feel is actually making me better and might actually be reinforcing bad habits. What to do?

Thanks- any light you can shed on this would be most welcome.

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1. I used to go for the quickest sub possible when rolling with lower ranks the first time. After that first sub I'd relax and flow. Never really had any issues, as they could tell the difference, one would hope. Now I don't really care. I roll the way I roll, and don't care about tapping. It is what it is. Not that I let people sub me or anything, I definitely do not, but if they do, no big deal, let's play again.

2. It depends. If it's someone you know, take it, if it's someone you don't know that well, ask them ahead of time if they're comfortable with leg locks/heel hooks, etc. I'm not comfortable with just anyone diving for my ankle.

3. Rolling with low intensity doesn't mean rolling in a way that reinforces bad habits. Pick a focus, like weight placement, or flowing from one thing to another. If you're still having trouble close your eyes. My coach would occasionally turn out (most of) the lights in the old gym.

1 and 2 are the opposite sides of the same problem, how to roll with people of a different rank.

Considered on its own, the second situation makes absolutely no sense - of course you tap a higher belt out. The only problem would be if there is a gym prohibition on certain techniques for white belts (like heel hooks).

The first situation is something that many people have a hard time with. You should not get caught by a lower belt, but if you are working on something new, it is best to start with white belts even if that means you might get caught. If you do get caught, assert your belt in the next roll. Perhaps it is a good idea to get a couple of quick taps with your A-game so that the white belt knows what is up before moving on to what you are working for.

I occasionally tapped brown belts as a blue belt but I knew damn well that did not mean that the brown belt was incapable of dominating me if they brought their A-game. They left an opening and I was fast enough to capitalize on it. They smashed me the next go-around.

On intensity, unless the other person is injured or requests a light roll, I roll hard. If I am injured, I don't ask for light rolls. I simply point out my own injuries and ask them not to crank it but I accept that if I roll when injured, I may have to tap to lower belts. My elbow is still weak after being injured at NAGA and re-injured in a white belt accident, so I've been tapping to things that normally would not happen and I hate it, I hate it, I hate it but I have to accept it. I feel stupid but I have to remind myself, I have earned my rank.

1. I vary a lot on this and I think it has as much to do with my mood that day as my overall training mindset. If it's a white belt who is larger and more aggressive, I'm gonna play things much safer than if it's a smaller guy who isn't trying to qualify for Abu Dhabi during open roll. If it's a brand new guy and they aren't spazzing, I go very light and keep it playful. I'll tap them a bunch, but I don't get rough with them. Many times in that situation I'll just see how long a string of transitions I can do before going for the sub. If I'm tired after a work day, I'm much more likely to let you do whatever it is you're trying to do and work my way out of it. That forces me to put in work even when I don't want to. It keeps me from being lazy mentally even when my body doesn't want to do anything. There are definitely days, though, where I came to TAP some fools and I want to put in real work. Chances are you're gonna spend some time in my RG or trying to escape TSC if I'm having that kind of day. :) I do have to say that I am reconsidering how I go about doing this. I agree that if you practice letting people pass your guard, you're going to get good at getting your guard passed. If I want to work my side control escapes, I should start there.

2. To be honest, I don't really think about catching higher belts. For starters, we only have a couple and I don't often get to roll with them. I've caught guys better than me and I've been caught by guys worse than me. I look at it like playing pick-up basketball. Some guys are going to drive the lane hard and dunk on you. I'm more of a sit on the outside and snipe at you with three-pointers and a clean jump shot kind of guy. Either way, some games I'm gonna score more, some games you are. Just because I hit a few three-pointers doesn't make me Kobe no matter how good you are. And just because you can dunk on me doesn't mean I have no game.

3. This is an area of weakness for me and has been since day one. I have little intensity in my game. I'm quick to disengage if I'm tired or if the thing I was trying to do fails. Coach once told me my biggest hang up is that I don't pull the trigger when I have someone in my sights. If my partner is very aggressive, that tends to make me more passive. I've been out with enough injuries and illness that if you're gonna go Hulk-smash on me, I'll just tap and reset. If that means I spend the whole round trying to escape side control, well then I got some conditioning in at the very least. This is an area I need to improve on. I know for sure it holds back my development because I spend less time dealing with higher-intensity opposition. I just hate being so exhausted that the next round is no fun so I modify my intensity to keep playing.

1. I usually let new guys move a little bit until they try and turn the intensity up on me. If you are going 20% against an athletic white belt that's going 100% you are probably going to end up with a bloody lip, knee to the head, or they try a sloppy submission attempt that they want to squeeze until you tap. At our gym we always say go as hard as you want the other person to go. That being said, if I let a white belt work one round, the next round ill probably try and smash them. Some of my best learning experiences and reality checks have come from getting smashed by a higher belt. So I have no problem trying to provide a similar experience.
2. I never use toe holds and heel hooks against white belts. With that being said, I used to have a touch and move on policy with heel hooks, but I believe that is setting yourself up for failure. A few months ago I competed at a submission only tournament and failed to finish several heel hooks in multiple matches. Every time I went for the finish my opponents would roll out because my control sucked. I realized afterwards that in class I would get to these same positions and would count the touch and go heel hook as a win. So in my case, I was giving myself false confidence in my heel hook skills because I would fly into these positions without truly ever getting control while going for the finish like I would straight ankle locks and toe holds. Since then I have focused on getting to heel hook positions with as much control as possible. Once there, I will try and finish. Recently, I have finished a few heel hooks in competition and I credit my new thinking on training with heel hooks.
3. On Tuesdays and Thursdays I always roll hard because its competition rolling. Other days I train it depends on my training partners. Whether someone wants to roll with a competition intensity or slow roll, I am game.

My opinion:
1) If you tell the person what you're up to, there should be no issue. (Even if you wait till after)
2) Whitebelts use heelhooks at our club. Just saying.
3) I can't comment, because I have recently been informed that I apperently roll "very intensely" even though to me I don't feel like I am rolling very intensely, so my Intensomomiter might not be functioning properly.

1. I usually let new guys move a little bit until they try and turn the intensity up on me. If you are going 20% against an athletic white belt that's going 100% you are probably going to end up with a bloody lip, knee to the head, or they try a sloppy submission attempt that they want to squeeze until you tap. At our gym we always say go as hard as you want the other person to go. That being said, if I let a white belt work one round, the next round ill probably try and smash them. Some of my best learning experiences and reality checks have come from getting smashed by a higher belt. So I have no problem trying to provide a similar experience.
2. I never use toe holds and heel hooks against white belts. With that being said, I used to have a touch and move on policy with heel hooks, but I believe that is setting yourself up for failure. A few months ago I competed at a submission only tournament and failed to finish several heel hooks in multiple matches. Every time I went for the finish my opponents would roll out because my control sucked. I realized afterwards that in class I would get to these same positions and would count the touch and go heel hook as a win. So in my case, I was giving myself false confidence in my heel hook skills because I would fly into these positions without truly ever getting control while going for the finish like I would straight ankle locks and toe holds. Since then I have focused on getting to heel hook positions with as much control as possible. Once there, I will try and finish. Recently, I have finished a few heel hooks in competition and I credit my new thinking on training with heel hooks.
3. On Tuesdays and Thursdays I always roll hard because its competition rolling. Other days I train it depends on my training partners. Whether someone wants to roll with a competition intensity or slow roll, I am game.