whats with the loyalty in gi , nogi ? creonte?

Ive been a around quite awhile trained at several gyms and traveld alot. IM a nogi guy with mma as a background. So I have question that hopefully some of you guys may have seen or come across in your travels.
I have a teammate that fights in mma. He started nogi jits with me but of course as he developed he wanted to branch out and learn as much as he could so he started training gi (under a "blackbelt)which was awesome) but after some time and winning of several nagas/ grappling tourneys. He finally got promoted to blue in gi. He wanted to progress more and develop his stand up skills as well. So he went to his instructor said id like to transfer to this other gym (note!! Its the same system. its his instructors school that gave his instructor his blackbelt) well to hurry this up. he was denied the transfer .when he went to the other instructor and asked if he could help him out explaining his goals . advancing in mma . (he said i cant help you i gave him his belt and its his choice.) SO finally im at my question??? Does he start over now in another system? his instructor basically turned his back on him called him a creonte and bad mouths him. The kid tried doing the right steps to advancing his career ?

Couple thoughts:

1. It's important to leave the right way by communicating respectfully… sounds like your buddy tried
2. It's also important to let people move on…. sounds like his instructors don't know how to handle that very professionally
3. Bad mouthing a student? Now the instructor is creating a toxic environment for everyone at the academy…poor leadership
4. It's not the instructor's choice, it's the students choice. While the student is a teammate, and part of a community, he's also a consumer and it's his time and money to spend.
5. Refusing to let a student move to a school in network is crazy to me. To stay in business you have to act like one.

I'm sure some of the moon heads have other experiences and perspectives to contribute.

thanks i have the same views. I just love the sport ill roll and train with anyone , I dont see how it should even be an issue but then i dont get how the gi community views it . Maybe in brazil i could see that cause the comp teams are more serious

Your BJJ journey is not your instructor's personal private property. Any school throwing around the word creonte is childish and not deserving of your time. IDC if it's Marcelo. You don't just call a did creonte cuz he wants to train shrinking for mma. Smh

IMO as long as the student pays their fees as the Club advertises and they are not spying or sharing information with competitors it shouldn't matter to the Instructor where the student trains. You should be able to balance Loyalty, Honour and Respect while training at multiple facilities especially if you are open about it. Unless there is a serious Beef between the two Instructors it just shows insecurity if an instructor prohibits a student from training elsewhere. If an Instructor knows that what they are teaching is good, they will know the student will be back.

I am a huge believer in loyalty. I may even take it a little far sometimes, but I would never try to tell a student he couldn't train somewhere else. Especially if it was within the same association. It's his choice. If there was another instructor trying to steal them away, and they chose to take the offer, that's a creonte. You have to understand what it's like when you have serious competitive teams not even a mile away from each other. At the highest level, people are dishonest. Rio is like that and so the creonte label is thrown around.

Eddie was my first coach for years. I never met him till years later. I wanted to learn everything I could so I started training at a gym that was 60% gi 40 nogi. We had a great relationship at first. They realized my unorthodox style would give them an advantage via dealing with it on a daily basis, as opposed to just in tournies. I was assimilated into the gym with coinstructor status and paid no tuition, but also got paid nothing for the hours I would spend with guys drilling, plus driving all over the country coaching and competing. I was killing comps, so he pretty much wanted to use me and the Swim Team to market his gym. Definitely fair. The problem came when I also refused to not rep 10p. Hypocrisy is one thing I won't abide. I loved the gym and my training partners, but my jj and success from it was from 10p and I needed people to know it. I got great training, but learned nothing except how to use 10p on solid traditional grapplers. I wanted to rep both, he didnt agree. We eventually parted ways due to 'phylosophical differences'/owners insecurities.

Loyalty is a funny thing. You can't demand or enforce it. You must inspire it. Or else its not loyalty. Its mandated dogma. Those I follow and who follow me do it out of respect. Finding an individual you truly respect and giving them your genuine loyalty is one of the greatest honors in life.

when we lived in vegas, my son trained at a traditional gi school which was a machado affiliate at the time... my son would train 10th planet in california once a month... the instructor knew about it and would joke about it at first (making fun of 10thp)... once my son started using techniques they didnt know about it became a problem... to make a long story short we were asked to leave...

now for the irony, that same school (previously machado affiliate) has now became a gracie affiliate school.. so its ok for the instructors to switch or cross train at different affiliations but its not ok for the students...

i think these types of schools use the creote label because they are afraid to lose students... its only about the money...

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Loyalty is a funny thing. You can't demand or enforce it. You must inspire it. Or else its not loyalty. Its mandated dogma. Those I follow and who follow me do it out of respect. Finding an individual you truly respect and giving them your genuine loyalty is one of the greatest honors in life.

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One of the greatest posts ever….

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Originally Posted by JoeO'Laughlin

Ive been a around quite awhile trained at several gyms and traveld alot. IM a nogi guy with mma as a background. So I have question that hopefully some of you guys may have seen or come across in your travels.
I have a teammate that fights in mma. He started nogi jits with me but of course as he developed he wanted to branch out and learn as much as he could so he started training gi (under a "blackbelt)which was awesome) but after some time and winning of several nagas/ grappling tourneys. He finally got promoted to blue in gi. He wanted to progress more and develop his stand up skills as well. So he went to his instructor said id like to transfer to this other gym (note!! Its the same system. its his instructors school that gave his instructor his blackbelt) well to hurry this up. he was denied the transfer .when he went to the other instructor and asked if he could help him out explaining his goals . advancing in mma . (he said i cant help you i gave him his belt and its his choice.) SO finally im at my question??? Does he start over now in another system? his instructor basically turned his back on him called him a creonte and bad mouths him. The kid tried doing the right steps to advancing his career ?

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It weird shit. You know my stance on that. BTW you may want to update your belt color on here brotha!

Based on your friend handling it properly and his response, it's surely a combination of ego and money. One less student paying fees, and the representation be it accurate or not that hes not adequate to provide the training your buddy needs... I've heard stories like that of the son of Ron Almedias many times.. Our hardest competitor/10p girl warrior Amber Kamishcki started training 10p just as crosstraining a few additional nogi classes each week, because the gym she trained at was mostly gi and she wanted to train in both. They were fine with it at first, just negative attitude about it, but once she started using 10p moves there with success they said she had to chose there or 10p. (a big mistake for them, cause shes at every comp there is!)

Alot of Instructors are afraid of people using and showing techniques to the other students that the instructor themselves don't know or understand.. It negates their infallible know everything master status and exposes weakness... Some would insist this is why brazilians were so anti foot lock for so long.. But this is just another advantage for our system, because the close minded will never grow as fast as the open...

The Instructor that taught me the most about Martial Arts (not BJJ style) and I am still Loyal to even though he has retired had this approach: It is better to be well rounded and know at little bit about all styles. His reason was that even if you specialize in one style there will always be someone who is better at that style so you will will have to use other tools to win. For instance he would say, "I would not want to fight a Tae Kwon Do master on TKD rules, I will lose most of the time; however, reasonable Boxing or Muay Thai will cause a lot of problems for the TKD master who only trains that style. It is very hard to beat someone at their own Game, but if you can change the Game on them you will have a significant advantage." He never had a problem with students going to other schools or students from other schools coming to his as long as they paid and were Respectful.

NameLikeNoOther, that is a great post and a good approach imo.
Also just wanted to mention that Eddie himself requests that forum users sign up with their real name. You can contact Scott Elkin and he will change your username for you.

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Originally Posted by DanConway

They were fine with it at first, just negative attitude about it, but once she started using 10p moves there with success they said she had to chose there or 10p. (a big mistake for them, cause shes at every comp there is!)

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That is awesome. Crush them Amber!!

I used to have my Username as my given name, except I have the same name and age as a cop in the Province and lets just say it has caused some incidents. Also, I have recently gone through a Divorce where my ex was having an affair with a firefighter who is friends with all the cops in my town, again causing me major headaches and hassles. So for now I choose to lay low, it is just easier. I am probably going to hassled again for disclosing this. Anyways, if you want to know who I am I just Facebook added you.

Currently the schools I crosstrain at all know I use a lot of 10th Planet (or will be attempting it) I make it clear to the instructors first day walking in I tell them it's one of my bases, and I go by gutfeel when rolling with someone if it's ok for me to put them into the truck etc. If I get a sense the instructor (or students) aren't too crazy about the staple 10thpjj moves then I either won't take the first class with them or just won't come back after. I also let them know ahead of time I'm a Ronin or already have a couple homebases, and I tell them if there's certain moves they don't want shared then I respect that and keep it between us.

But yeah, sounds like your friend tried to be professional about it but the instructor(s) are either letting their ego's get in the way, along with getting protective about what they perceive as their income....hope it works out eventually let the forum know if you need anything else...

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Originally Posted by NameLikeNoOther

I used to have my Username as my given name, except I have the same name and age as a cop in the Province and lets just say it has caused some incidents. Also, I have recently gone through a Divorce where my ex was having an affair with a firefighter who is friends with all the cops in my town, again causing me major headaches and hassles. So for now I choose to lay low, it is just easier. I am probably going to hassled again for disclosing this. Anyways, if you want to know who I am I just Facebook added you.

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Yet another example of why a can't stand cops.

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Originally Posted by Kurzy

That is awesome. Crush them Amber!!

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Thanks Kurzy!

I'm very happy with the decision I made to stay with 10th planet. What was initially approved cross training by my old instructor became an issue when someone from 10P coached me during a tournament which my old coach wasn't even at! He had a tendency to show up only for his male students, not female.

I don't understand the issues with cross training. My cousin recently started at a Gracie Barra where I'm from and I did not think they would allow me to stop in while I'm in town for the holidays but the instructor is actually excited for me to come (in the gi of course). This whole us versus them mentality is slowly going away. I'm going to California for vacation in two weeks and not only am I going to 10th planet schools but also Victory, Art of Jiu Jitsu and Cobrinhas. They all know I'm 10th planet yet have no issue with us coming to class. I hope the trend continues to change so people have less of an "us vs. them" mentality but there will always be dicks out there who do such as my old coach and the guy mentioned by Joe.

If you pay to train you should train where you want

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Originally Posted by elon hodge

If you pay to train you should train where you want

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Nailed it