Would like to hear everyone's opinion on this video. I think he lost fair and square to a legal submission and it is his own fault that he didnt tap and got his ankle broken.
http://youtu.be/xia9HfvAOiI
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Would like to hear everyone's opinion on this video. I think he lost fair and square to a legal submission and it is his own fault that he didnt tap and got his ankle broken.
http://youtu.be/xia9HfvAOiI
From that angle I find it quite hard to see what it was that did it the end, however I can only assume that it was a legal technique or an unintentional injury as he was declared the winner of the bout. Now I personally believe that if you enter a competition where those moves are legal and you for whatever reason (don't want, too ignorant to, just plain ol' lazy etc) to learn the proper defenses to those Submissions, positions, controls etc then you have no one to blame other than yourself. That all being said it is hard to see what exactly happened.
If you're in a competition, first of all, you should know that you're going in with the intent of wrecking people until they tap or until the buzzer goes off; therefore, you can't get mad if you get wrecked. Second, ALL submissions are legal at NAGA comps — dude should know that; you can even reap the knee. He lost due to an opportunistic opponent and his ankle broke because of his own carelessness. IMO
So he had your ankle trapped inside his knee with your foot protruding, then he put the inside of his fore arm under your metatarsals and grabbed the top of his knee and applied upward pressure?
You're saying he applied the technique sharply and suddenly?
Legal, fair, plenty of time to tap. He even said he knew he was constantly pulling and grabbing on his ankle, yet he hung on a decided to go for a kimura anyway, yet complains there was no time to tap. You can't have it both ways, either there was plenty of time because he was constantly grabbing your ankles OR you didn't have time to tap (which isn't in the rules). How about escaping, instead of struggling for a submission that isn't there. Sore looser, needs to worry less about excuses and spend more time training leg locks.
Over all assessment: Not a typical douchebag in BJJ, however defiantly a typical whiney bitch.
As usual it's very hard to disagree with coach Herzog when it comes to leglocks and being a decent human being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Sorry, I couldn't get the video to work on youtube, so I just embedded it above, and it works for me now.
So yeah. I couldn't have put it better than you guys have already put it. Sounds like this guy's just salty that he got caught in a move that he didn't understand and didn't like.
Maybe I take for granted the quality of training and partners I've had back home at 10th Planet Rochester, but I'm only a whitey and I am familiar with that move. Sarkis has hit me with that before and I had enough sense to try and defend the moment I felt my ankle twisting......and eventually I tapped. It's not rocket science. You feel your ankle twisting? Defend. Can't defend? Tap. Ankles snap hella easy. But again, I'm thinking this is common sense because my coach taught me proper leg lock principles. I guess not everyone is familiar with basic principles.
So, for anyone who doesn't know, when you're caught in a leg lock, it takes a little longer for the pain to set in. With an armbar, you get a sharp pain that makes you tap almost instinctively. Legs have a little more give so you don't get that sharp pain immediately. You want to start defending the moment you feel your joint is being pulled in the wrong direction. If you realize you can't defend it, you don't have to wait for the pain to set in. Just be smart and accept that your opponent has you in check mate. Tap. Better to tap early than late when it comes to legs.
Yeah, I concur with the above-I'm sure the guy (both of them) are good people and mean while, but the person caught in the ankle/foot attack needs to recognize he's in a compromised spot and he has a decision to make-either gamble and try to finish the kimura he has before his foot/ankle gives, or abandon and defend, and then after escaping go back on the offensive. As the guy cranking the ankle/foot I think he's doing what he's forced to, his only other option is to let go (or hold on and stare at the ref and be like "WTF is this a tap or not?"). I have a teammate at one gym I visit who caught someone in a heel hook and had it all about ready to break but waited for the guy to tap, looked at the ref, ref didn't stop it and eventually guy escaped. Now had my teammate gone ahead and broke the guys ankle, people would've been up in arms over whether he gave time to tap or not.
Either way, hope the guy recovers soon and comes back stronger...
Can someone please give me a name of this sub or explain it?
Is there any rule stating that the intention when applying a submission must be to submit the opnt vs cranking as hard and fast as you can in order to cause damage?
Its seems that when people apply leg-locks, they often substitute good position before submission for hard, fast application. We see rotating leg-locks applied this way often but almost never see someone trying like hell to break someones arm with an armbar by using violent sudden actions vs acquiring good position and then applying the sub gradually.
I mention this before the start of every leg lock seminar I teach. To be honest I don't think he cranked it all that ballisticlly and was working on it for awhile, 100% fail on the narrators part to respond. All he is doing is a foot flex, from a calf crush'ish type position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
Im not saying that I can tell how suddenly/violently he applied the sub in this case. Im wondering if you can (say you were a bad person) apply subs like an armbar with the intention of breaking the arm vs a slower application. Ive never seen anyone try to suddenly and forcefully apply an upper body sub with the intention of causing damage before the opnt could tap.
How did this sub work? Was it applying stress to the ankle similarly to how a straight ankle lock would?
It was twisting like a toe hold. Think "vaporizer." The vaporizer has a calf crush, but a good deal of the torque is actually on the ankle.
I watch a looooooot of youtube. I can tell you I've seen a good deal of guys crank upper body subs. More than leg locks.
As far as guys "often" cranking lower body subs hard and fast, again, I can't agree with you. I watch a lot of tourney footage, and I can only think of a handful of video where the guy cranked a toe hold too fast. Watch ADCC which has a lot of heel hook finishes. You don't see a lot of full blast heel hooking. I think Palhares is the only one who really does.
I think what gives you that impression is that guys tap late. Like I mentioned, when you get armbarred, you get near instant pain that makes you instinctively tap. Legs don't react the same way. If I apply 10% pressure on your locked elbow or shoulder, you feel pain. If I apply 10% pressure on a kneebar or toe hold, you just feel the pressure. It feels like you can let it flex a bit further. So what happens is that guys crank harder because they have a fully locked on sub, with no tap. And then the person taps too late because they didn't respect the warning signs.
Weird it was twisting but it snapped his ankle? Was it inward or outward rotation?
Well upper body subs are still far more common ,so the number of times you see guys applying them roughly is going to be higher but in terms of the proportions of sub attempt that are applied in this manner, I feel like you see guys that dont understand leg locks attempting to make up for bad position with dramatic/fast application. If Im understanding Zog agrees with this.
I admit this is not a problem in higher levels.
Great point re: people tapping late to leg-lock due to lack of pain before damage occurs, Im aware of this of course but imo that is a good reason we should go for establishing good position and applying them like a gentleman even in comp.
Again, I personally cant see what happened in this vid, so I'll believe Zogs interpretation.
True point about upper body being more common. And yeah, twisting like a toe hold. Toe holds snap ankles. Not sure what you mean by inward or outward. But basically think of how you torque a toe hold, and you have your answer.
Your rephrasing of your original point makes more sense to me now. yeah, I can agree with you on that. Guys who don't know much about leg locks do crank faster due to lack of proper positioning.
In the video, the guy really did have good position and was applying slow controlled pressure. But the narrator really thought his 65% complete kimura/armbar was better than his opponent's 90% available crank. He underestimated the effectiveness of the uncommon sub, over estimated how deep his own sub was, overestimated how flexible his ankle was (since he wasn't giving proper defense) and he paid the price. Can't call someone else a douche for your own mistakes.
It's happened to me. Brandon McCaghren taught me a valuable lesson. Heel hook beats everything. I latched on a texas clover leaf well before he grabbed an inverted heel hook. I though my sub would win first because I got it first. Nope. Knee popped. I'm lucky that it was just like cartilage like when you crack your knuckles, but boy did I learn my lesson. Brandon is one of my favorite people. He's no where near a douche. I'm the one who should've tapped. I'm a white belt who made a white belt mistake. The guy in the video is a higher rank than I am. IMO, he should've known better. He needs to accept his mistake, not complain about how he got beat by a move he didn't understand.
Sounds like your typical dude that doesn't train leglocks and gets caught before he even knew he was in danger. If you dont train leglocks dont do tournaments where they are legal. Stick to IBJJF. Thats my advice. I mean he was trying to hyperextend this shoulder with a kimura (that wasnt there) and then crys like a baby when dude counters with a foot flex? An did he say the guy didnt even care that he hurt me? Its a tournament...man up.
I agree with almost all of what David said except 2 things:
1) That wasn't a twisting leg lock, it was a straight foot flex, he had the foot in the crook of his elbow pit and the foot was flexed (with the toes pointed) so the damage was likely the tendons on the top of the foot and top outside of the ankle.
2) Brandon McCaghren is a huge douche.
lol
If you gonna compete wit out da Gi you better know your leg locks and how to defend them:cool:
1. Oh ok. Gotcha. I was thinking vaporizer when it was more foot flex. Got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
2. LMAO.
This is the best place on the internet.
There are inside and outside toe holds. Inside is far more common.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Inside,
Attachment 2501
Outside,
Attachment 2502
not sure why the pics aren't showing here?
definitelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
Ginormous. Colossal even.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
I see my reputation precedes me here.
It's true.
If that dude had some more strength he could have finished the Double wrist lock!