How Rickson Gracie feels about modern BJJ

I love this clip of Rickson talking about the state of modern BJJ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e81X9R5yw_Y

I wonder though, he still uses some gi manipulation in his style, yes? Either way it's nice to see him commenting on over emphasis of using collars and sleeves and how that's hurting BJJ as a true martial art (at least that's my interpretation of what he's saying).

This reminds me of an old argument I get into at most schools I train at, I'm sure this will bore most of you and it goes something like this...

Instructor: Chris, why don't you want to learn the technique using gi grips, lapel/collar, jacket work etc?

Self: Because I'd prefer to learn BJJ in a manor that would be suited to all situations, such as mma or self defense and I feel that my time would be better spent working on the techniques that work across the board vs doing reps of a tech. with grips that might not be there later.

Instructor: But don't you realize that the best no-gi people and the best competitors in BJJ all train in the gi? Do you know many black belts would come in here and tell you the same thing? The only way you'll get better is to embrace all of BJJ.

Self: I know a few black belts that would disagree and I personally disagree. I also think that the people training this way, primarily 10th Planet are new to the game and few in number by comparison so it's far to early to judge at the BB level even though at brown these things can be argued well. But lets put all of that aside and just say that it's the way I want to train.

This goes much like my RG arguments but to me this argument should be obvious. So the question is, how many non-10th Planet BBs agree with this? It seems like Rickson agrees somewhat and I see his BB Henry is at least into the more functional fundamental techniques, plus I saw that vid of Nogueira talking about this as well. But who else, that's about it right?

The further the gi game goes into specific strange grips (pirate grip, lapel guard etc) the less interested I am in learning it. The sort of fundamental grips for throwing or choking interest me, but that's it.

It's the taking out the jacket, wrapping it around the guy, swicthing grips and flipping over type shit that really blows me away, wtf.

Also I realize this is essentially Eddie's argument as stated many times before. I just wonder if we have more allies in this thinking than we know of.

Gi jackets suck. If a mother fucker grabs hold of my coat in a street fight Imma punch dude in the face hard, repeatedly. So for the same reason as you I won't use the lapel etc. Almost means when you roll in the gi you are rolling with a handicap though. They (training partners/competitors) will use it against you, and obviously in jiu jitsu we cant punch them. So its worth at least knowing the defence if you are going to continue doing gi. Just don't concentrate on the jacket attacks if you aren't interested in them.

IMO the gi jacket makes jiu jitsu matches even suckier to watch. These matches where its just a 50/50 foot fetish scissor fuck shitty game of tug of war dudes play its a huge part of what is wrong with jiu jitsu (that and the new super-spamming/affiliate marketing crap that everyone is doing now) and why it will never be a spectator sport. Its the ugliest and least 'combat effective' shite I have ever seen in my life. The guys that play that think they are the shit, and are doing well with it - in jiu jitsu matches. But a jiu jitsu match is so far from a real fight. Those Miyao's for example would probably get fucking squished in a fight with strikes. By a purple belt for sure, maybe even a blue.

:)

That's just a dumb argument Sam. The Miyao brothers are competing to a rule set. If the rule set changed (I.e. Punches) of course they wouldn't be upside down half the time! Let's not forget that the guys at the elite level doing the weird stuff all have an amazing basic game too. You just never see it.

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Originally Posted by brianspinaltap

That's just a dumb argument Sam. The Miyao brothers are competing to a rule set. If the rule set changed (I.e. Punches) of course they wouldn't be upside down half the time! Let's not forget that the guys at the elite level doing the weird stuff all have an amazing basic game too. You just never see it.

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yeah I am on about the positions. Why play something that has no effect on the street? Puts you in the worst positions ever. Basically watering the art down. It becomes less of a functional fighting form and more of a boring sport 'trying' to be flashy. I am all for evolution of jj, but that isn't evolution to me. Its not making it better, at all.
What Eddie done was take something and make it better and even more functional for FIGHTING. Fighting in this day and age. What they are doing is the opposite.

I agree with just about everything that Rickson said, especially about winning by points and advantages and relying on sleeves and collars. To me and to most of yalls on here it's pretty fucking clear but then there are people that believe tower 7's free fall collapse does not look like a controlled demo #commonsenseissometimessohardtoseeforsomepeople

I love this.
It just makes sense.

Also, Its hard or people to argue when it is Rickson that says it. :)

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

I agree with just about everything that Rickson said, especially about winning by points and advantages and relying on sleeves and collars. To me and to most of yalls on here it's pretty fucking clear but then there are people that believe tower 7's free fall collapse does not look like a controlled demo #commonsenseissometimessohardtoseeforsomepeople

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Yep, funny thing too my teammate likened me to a climate change denier for making this argument, he thinks all black belts would disagree with me and hence I'm believing in nonsense. To me it's a basic scientific fact that training gi chokes isn't going to improve your no-gi, mma or street fighting ability. So really I see the rest of the BJJ community as the climate deniers who just keep believing no matter what you tell them, it's just they have a majority.

Sam, totally agreed.

Eddie and co.. is the original no-gi argument from the MTRG book posted online somewhere? I'm having a hard time finding it but I did find this excellent post which I had missed before

http://www.10thplanetwatch.com/2009/...o-gi-training/

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Originally Posted by .BB.

I love this.
It just makes sense.

Also, Its hard or people to argue when it is Rickson that says it. :)

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Yes, that does help a lot. Someday Eddie will get some respect (that he deserves) on that level and we can stop having these tiring arguments.

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Originally Posted by Chris Datsusara Odell

To me it's a basic scientific fact that training gi chokes isn't going to improve your no-gi, mma or street fighting ability. So really I see the rest of the BJJ community as the climate deniers who just keep believing no matter what you tell them, it's just they have a majority.

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I can agree that it may not improve your No-Gi or MMA, but it can surely help your self-defense/"street fighting" ability. Maybe you're roaming the beaches all day but where I live at least 9 months of the year people are walking around with jackets on.

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Originally Posted by BuddyRowe

I can agree that it may not improve your No-Gi or MMA, but it can surely help your self-defense/"street fighting" ability. Maybe you're roaming the beaches all day but where I live at least 9 months of the year people are walking around with jackets on.

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Yeah, I question that guys understanding of the scientific method.

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Originally Posted by BuddyRowe

I can agree that it may not improve your No-Gi or MMA, but it can surely help your self-defense/"street fighting" ability. Maybe you're roaming the beaches all day but where I live at least 9 months of the year people are walking around with jackets on.

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I can possibly see the advantage of knowing lapel chokes in certain situations however for the most I don't like it, you try grabbing a guys sleeves and even collar when he's throwing windmills at you...clinching up is much easier and a natural thing to do. Will learning Jiu-Jitsu in a Gi have no cross over to self defense? Of course it will..you're still learning how to control somehow on the ground and take him down...however will it help as much with self defense as compared to no gi jiu jitsu? Not in my opinion

wanted to repeat this request...

Eddie and co.. is the original no-gi argument from the MTRG book posted online somewhere?

Also I see what you guys are saying with jackets even on the street, especially if you don't live in California, but even then I'd hate to rely on gi skills as someones outfit might be too different to prepare for. you'd have to drill t0shirts, v-necks, polo shirts, hoodies, jackets of all kinds, almost all of which are harder to manipulate than a big thick gi and forget about a belt being as easy to grab as a gi belt, i'll do my hip bump sweeps without that expectation.

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Originally Posted by Chris Datsusara Odell

Also I see what you guys are saying with jackets even on the street, especially if you don't live in California, but even then I'd hate to rely on gi skills as someones outfit might be too different to prepare for. you'd have to drill t0shirts, v-necks, polo shirts, hoodies, jackets of all kinds, almost all of which are harder to manipulate than a big thick gi

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You underestimate the ability to adapt. Winter coats, denim jackets, leather jackets, any kind of jacket would take little to no adaptation. Honestly not every gi top is the same, some are tighter, some are loose, the techniques work regardless.

I'm not saying to completely rely on gi specific techniques but you claimed that they have no relevance to self-defense/street fighting which I find to be clearly false.

Gi training can definitely save your ass in a street situation but maybe not spider guard, not sure about that one :-)

Lololllol

I've tapped twice to a gi choke and both times it was a bow n arrow.

Granted most 'street fights' aren't that sophisticated, but my natural instincts aided me still.

I naturally protected my neck tho.

i wouldn't say none, just little and the variables are not something i'd want to have to worry about. certainly knowing how to break grips is important at a minimum.

Eddie, so can i safely assume that your original no-gi argument from Mastering the Rubber Guard is not posted anywhere online?

The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open. DEEEEEEEEP. Hahaha.

I started out in NoGi and now I train in both - mainly due to situation but I enjoy both for different reasons.

I generally don't go too much into sleeves and collars when I roll because sometimes I don't think it's that beneficial anyway. Pant legs on the other hand...damn...a lot of shit I do gets snuffed because someone can grab a pant leg.

I think Gi is slightly more applicable for street for obvious reasons.

In terms of Sam saying that if someone grabbed your jacket you'd just punch, surely the grabbing of the jacket is breaking the posture so you cant?

Anyway - the reservoir of techniques now - there's one for most if not all situations. So in my mind as long as I'm enjoying what I'm doing, who cares.

For example, spider guard is fun. But if i'm getting my face smashed I'm not going to try doing that - if I'm NoGi I probably wont play around with it by trying to hold onto wrists.

Martial Arts/fighting is about being smart also. Assessing your environment, rules, no rules. Work out your priorities and train towards them goals.

I love what Henry Akins (Rickson's BB) has to say on what techniques he likes to focus on...

1. Need to develop the ability to take someone down in the street or on concrete without injuring myself.

2. All techniques I’m going to train, could be used in a situation where striking was involved and I would not be exposed to taking damage.

3. The techniques could be used on a bigger stronger opponent.

4. The techniques can be used gi or no-gi with very little variation.

- See more at: http://lovatobjjvideos.com/what-tech....PSgrrv6h.dpuf

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Originally Posted by Joe Firth

In terms of Sam saying that if someone grabbed your jacket you'd just punch, surely the grabbing of the jacket is breaking the posture so you cant?

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Headbutt then. Done.

For me its as simple as this, if it has little to no real combat effectiveness (in an mma or street fight) it has no place in a fighting form/system. So to spend all your time practicing collar chokes and berimbolos etc would be retarded. Unless your only objective in training is sport jiu jitsu.
Always makes me laugh when these little dickheads will train berimbolos all day long but scoff at the very idea of training rubber guard, which is a billion times better.
Agree with everything Henry Atkins said. :)

http://i58.tinypic.com/2elw8rl.jpg

hahahaha

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

I agree with just about everything that Rickson said, especially about winning by points and advantages and relying on sleeves and collars. To me and to most of yalls on here it's pretty fucking clear but then there are people that believe tower 7's free fall collapse does not look like a controlled demo #commonsenseissometimessohardtoseeforsomepeople

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Originally Posted by sam sales

Headbutt then. Done.

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I don't think it's as simple as that - but in some situations, I suppose it is as simple as that.

Its a tricky one to discuss on a forum - but I understand your point and agree with it 95%. I just think - street wise, that it could help in certain situations.

Discussing how high percentage it is, is a different story. RG is much higher success rate in my opinion.

I think gi's should be allowed in mma if that competitor wants to, it has its advantages and disadvantages, If the fighters that wear gi's begin to fail more then we know the answer. But as far as street fighting goes, throws are way more effective than punches. Even a basic throw, made much easier to perform if the person is wearing a jacket or thick shirt, will devastate whomever hits the ground. Its hard to appreciate how hard concrete is until you get thrown into it. Despite always leaning towards striking for mma, I would always attempt to trip or throw an opponent if attacked. I think more judo and geniuine akido, not the movie style fippity flop wrist locks akido, will start showing up more and more in mma. Rhonda Rousey is already a testament to its effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by jposey

I think gi's should be allowed in mma if that competitor wants to, it has its advantages and disadvantages, If the fighters that wear gi's begin to fail more then we know the answer. But as far as street fighting goes, throws are way more effective than punches. Even a basic throw, made much easier to perform if the person is wearing a jacket or thick shirt, will devastate whomever hits the ground. Its hard to appreciate how hard concrete is until you get thrown into it. Despite always leaning towards striking for mma, I would always attempt to trip or throw an opponent if attacked. I think more judo and geniuine akido, not the movie style fippity flop wrist locks akido, will start showing up more and more in mma. Rhonda Rousey is already a testament to its effectiveness.

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I rarely ever argue against something that I don't have first hand experience. I'm just not sure that taking a throw on concrete is as "devastating" as you might believe. I've personally been hip tossed on concrete, rocks, carpet, and wood floors. I've had single and double leg slams put on me by wrestlers in bar situations as well. I've seen people take 10+ head slams into hoods, baseball bat strikes, knife wounds, and gunshots. In a high percentage of these situations, the people were surprisingly still able to fight. I truly believe that the science behind adrenal dumps and their effects are often overlooked. Perhaps I've never been thrown by the best, but I know enough to say "If an attacker isn't unconscious or completely broken" they're still a danger.

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Originally Posted by sam sales

http://i58.tinypic.com/2elw8rl.jpg

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Sam, agreed on all points, thanks for the input and the amusing meme :)

Oh and if anyone has the Mastering the RG no-gi argument in a text format I'd greatly appreciate it, I don't want to type it all out but I want a compilation of the best arguments on the subject.

adding a few more arguments to my no-gi support list.....

4. Jean Jacques Machado on Eddie Bravo Radio podcast (http://youtu.be/YaKJu-YtmP4)

"... with so many years doing Jiu Jitsu using the gi, still today a lot of Jiu Jitsu guys rely so much the guard, the jiu jitsu game using the gi. They wrap now the gis around the legs, they wrap the gi around everywhere. I have to understand that is part of the game but one thing and one of the principals that I learned is Jiu Jitsu is based in self defense, and I think the the direction of the Jiu Jitsu today is towards the sport aspect which is two different things.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong or better or worse but if you're going to a fight I want to learn the Jiu Jitsu that is work for self defense. Which is very basic but with a very good foundation. Not the Jiu Jitsu they are doing in the sports aspect which is a very acrobatic but most of the techniques they are do there are not functioning for the fighting situation."


7. Marcelo Garcia, interview with Budo Jake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgjU1269ROQ

Budo Jake: "A lot of instructors say that you should start with the gi and maybe later no-gi, but you teach from day one 50/50 right?"

MG: "I think gi is easier to understand but I don't see a no reason to don't do both..."

Budo Jake: "Looking at your career it seems like you have switched to a no-gi style, you don't use a lot of grips, it seems like you are using more and more no gi grips in your gi training and competition is that true?"

MG: "That makes sense, but maybe it was because I went all the way to brown belt just gi. So now that i kind of do 50/50 (gi and no-gi), so it make things like, make my game similar to both. I try and find a game that is easy to use to both... I don't want to confuse my students so I show a technique that most of the time work for both. So just make simple and easy."

Question, if training gi JJ does make you better at no-gi JJ, does gi JJ also make you're JJ better for MMA?

Gene, that's the argument that many present but I don't buy it. They always say "well look at all the greats, they train in the gi". But I'd bet, as does Eddie, and these people mentioned above, that we'd see a higher caliber of JJ in MMA if we started people without it, or at least didn't let people rely on gi grips.

Do any wrestlers train in gi to improve wrestling?

gp