Legal issues from injuries during sparring?

Guys, I have a question on the legal side of things regarding where schools in general stand on injuries sustained in sparring.

Let me first be clear, this story is about me BUT I am definitely not looking for advice so I can take legal action against my school. It was partly my fault and I chose to spar, I wasn't forced.

When I started training here, I was never made to sign a waver, I did the techniques then just watched the first few classes I attended spar, before my instructor allowed me to get involved after I had a few classes under my belt. As far as I know, no-one else at our school has ever signed a waver.

A few weeks ago I got caught in a kimura in transition, and defended by grabbing my collar. The guy I was rolling with is a blue belt 4 stripes (I am a white belt 2 stripes) and outweighs me by 30-40 lbs. He was in side control, and stepped over my head. The kimura was in tight and he really exploded hard, broke my grip and I instantly felt the pain from the shoulder lock. I tapped instantly both physically and verbally, which my instructor heard and naturally had a stern talk with the higher level guy.

I was pretty pissed off because the guys where I train are really nice and usually rolling we go very hard but also "keep it playful", but I partly have myself to blame for not realising how deep the kimura was in.

Anyway, after icing for a few days, and a week off, I'm back training hard, I'm fine, no harm done. I love my school and have massive respect for my instructor, but I worry that by not making people sign wavers, sooner or later something similar is going to happen to a new student and they will take legal action.

Does anyone know if my school could legally be held responsible for this? I want to know so I can suggest getting this put in place in future.

Thanks.

Well people are getting into a marital art that is known for choking and breaking bones.....So I'm sure on rare occasions they could be liable but waiver or not I'd imagine it would be hard to get far in court when the judge says you know this is Jiu-Jitsu class right? Then they say yes.... Case dismissed rub some dirt on it.

Wavers should of been signed when you started, did you not sign anything when you joined like membership? Anyone who sues a school when they get hurt is bad news, who would join a fight club then complain when they fight! If you play with fire your going to get burned!

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Originally Posted by robster

Wavers should of been signed when you started, did you not sign anything when you joined like membership? Anyone who sues a school when they get hurt is bad news, who would join a fight club then complain when they fight! If you play with fire your going to get burned!

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No I didn't even sign a membership. It's pay per lesson or monthly for cash. We train in a school gym so it isn't exactly a gym where you require membership.

Definitely, but there are idiots like that out there I'm sure. I'm going to suggest signing waivers to be on the safe side.

you would of thought the school would make everyone sign a waver, did the coach not sign an agreement to cover everyone?

I have no idea mate. It did seem odd to me. I'll inquire.

A guy at our school broke his collar bone when rolling with someone. Our coach has often made a point of recommending people get insurance. He had been training about 2 years and when he broke it he went mental. "It was the clubs fault", "the guy he was sparring withs fault", etc. I don't know exactly what he did, only through what I was told by his mates who train with us; but he went to get legal advice and essentially they asked along the lines of what someone has said above: 'did they force you to spar?' and 'was it against someone considerably better than you and, therefore, dangerous?' and 'was an instructor present trying to stop accidents happening?'. I guess the solicitor didn't like the answers, because he told him there was nothing they could do for him except recommend he give up combat sports. I'm not sure what he does now… maybe shadow-jitsu, kickboxercise?

That said, your situation seems somewhat different. If the guy was legitimately trying to hurt you and your instructor wasn't paying attention to what was going on there may be something in it. I guess this would go to court and you'd argue out whether it was an 'accident' or 'accident through negligence' in this situation. Glad you aren't suing your school though ;)

Try tapping once it's checkmate, because I can't see how signing a piece of paper would've prevented anything. It's ultimately upto you to know when your in trouble, and can potentially be hurt. If he has 30-40lbs on you AND is a higher rank, you should've known better. I chaulk this injury upto inexperience. Glad you werent hurt seriously.

Suing a club you that you trained at for injuries incurred during sparring or training is a douche move in my opinion. You are not joining the Boys Choir Club when you enter a Martial Arts facility.

If you can't handle the possibility of an injury your own fault or not, do not participate in contact sports.

Its going to happen, accept it or don't play with us.

You don't sue the baseball team if you hurt yourself sliding into home plate. Why be even starting this thread I you weren't thinking of taking legal action?? Zog is right. It's a combat sport... Expect to get hurt. And grow a pair, few hundred years ago this sport was done with swords... Legal action... Lol.

I think some people are misunderstanding what his thread is about.

I do not want to sue my school. I would not sue my school. I expect to and often do get hurt. It's fighting, it happens.

Maybe I wasn't clear, legally, should my school be having people sign waivers is the question I'm asking here.

You should have a bomb-proof, titanium clad waiver written by a knowledgeable and experienced lawyer or Sports Organizing Body to cover your ass from douche bags 100% and also some Liability Insurance wouldn't hurt as wll.

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Originally Posted by jposey

Chris I understand and agree with your statement completely, but there are lots of folks out there that take advantage of the legal system to sue over everything they can. I just wanted to point out to instructors to cover themselves very carefully against them. A prospering business can be wrecked by one little punk, that gets just the right judge and jury.

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Oh of course, and some people don't know what they are getting into, its a instructors responsibility to make sure the student understands that, and obviously its also his responsibility to protect the well being of his academy via waivers and other legal protections.

And part of training is learning to deal with people better than you, take your ass beating like a man, its part of the processes.

Relying on someone else to protect you and keep you safe is foolish, if a submission is on tap.

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to put it to my instructor on Saturday. He's worked hard to get us where we are and I wouldn't want to see all the hard work fail on a technicality.

i see you train at Marc Walders, im very surprised he hasn't got this covered

Its worth remembering that the UK and USA have very different laws regarding waivers with combat sport. In one country they are worth more than the other.

All legit clubs should have blanket public liability, public indemnity insurance including member to member accidents and instructor liabilities. Our insurance covers us for several million. That said we don't let guys on their free class spar, so they have to have signed up to spar, and we also recommend that they have at least 6 classes and watch as much sparring as possible so they know what to expect. That said if someone gets hurt sparring, well its sparring.. The main thing is we cover ourselves by having proper insurance and doing everything that can be reasonably expected in the event of a mishap.

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Originally Posted by robster

i see you train at Marc Walders, im very surprised he hasn't got this covered

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Like I said, as far as I am aware no-one signed a waiver. Not sure about insurance.

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Originally Posted by Chris Garry

Its worth remembering that the UK and USA have very different laws regarding waivers with combat sport. In one country they are worth more than the other.

All legit clubs should have blanket public liability, public indemnity insurance including member to member accidents and instructor liabilities. Our insurance covers us for several million. That said we don't let guys on their free class spar, so they have to have signed up to spar, and we also recommend that they have at least 6 classes and watch as much sparring as possible so they know what to expect. That said if someone gets hurt sparring, well its sparring.. The main thing is we cover ourselves by having proper insurance and doing everything that can be reasonably expected in the event of a mishap.

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Thanks for this info Chris, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I'm sure my instructor will be interested to know this.

Ours is called Martial Guard Policy from a company called Tower Gate www.towergatewarwick.co.uk

Your gyms owner should be pleasantly surprised by how affordable the insurance works out at.

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Originally Posted by Chris Garry

Ours is called Martial Guard Policy from a company called Tower Gate www.towergatewarwick.co.uk

Your gyms owner should be pleasantly surprised by how affordable the insurance works out at.

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Wow, thank you very much :)

regardless of the situation, martial arts or whatever. If one has a legal right to sue, a waiver means dick in most situations.

Waivers are generally used as a way for businesses to convince others they signed away their legal rights.

On the back of baseball tickets is a little implied waiver that says something like there is a risk involved in watching the game like getting hit by foul balls and buy purchasing the ticket you agree to those terms. that said if someones head gets their head cracked in they can and do sue.

its like the sign at the dry cleaner that says they are not responsible for lost items, they are but most people believe the sign.

Waivers are still a good idea to have in place, and to sue a school is a douche move.

It would probably be bad for the school if someone got green lighted and injured.

However, the green light is an effective behavior modification tool. lol

Never ever waiver on the waiver. You don't step on the Phoneix mats without signing one first. No exceptions. It just protects everyone and gym insurance requires that you are using one. Just smart business to cover your ass.

Strange all the replys written as if he had asked "should I sue my school?"

He just wants to protect his school and look out for his coach.

Having not read most of the thread, I'll point out that individuals who get hurt are not likely to sue a gym. However, insurance companies are a whole 'nother story. The individual will have no control over whether or not their insurance company goes after the gym in question to recoup medical fees.

They need a waiver for sure!! I'm sure in a court of law it could be "implied" that when you step on the mats you become responsible for any injuries incurred, but not having people sign a waiver is just asking for serious problems. Waiver and insurance is mandatory, no questions. No one wants to get sued and loose their academy because someone got injured during sparring.

anyone that would sue a gym due to an injury sustained at the gym is a bitch made, jerkoff. it's combat sports, focker!