Trouble with strong dudes grabbing my arm while in the lockdown

I'm pretty sure this is a common problem that everyone's faced when learning the lockdown - big strong dude can't escape, so he grabs an arm and starts twisting/straightening it for a americana/straight armlock/kimura submission combo.

Question is - What do you guys do from here? With shorter guys, it's easy to straighten the lockdown and pull them downward, killing the angle of their arm submission. But with taller dudes, it doesn't make a difference.

So far, the only thing that's (kind of) worked for me has been going for the electric chair (while my LD-side arm is still stuck). It's possible and certainly works - but always ends up being a race between who pulls off his move first -- the arm submission, or the electric chair (not a great way to defend IMO).

Lockdown masters out there, any tips for this lockdown noob? :p

p.s. On a side note, when I do manage to avoid this and dive in for the electric underhooks, higher level guys have been reaching around their backs and grabbing kimuras - putting me right back into the position I'm talking about in that whole chunk of text above. :(

While using lock down your arms should never be just hanging there. You're either gonna have double unders and gable gripping hard on your opponents floater rib or have electric hooks, unless you're fighting to get there. Trust your lockdown bro, stretch it out and swivel your hips around. Just the lockdown alone has saved me from kimuras and armlocks you just have to get comfortable using it. Just like anything if you put in the reps it WILL work for you. :)

look up whip down

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Originally Posted by mikel

look up whip down

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I was having a very similar discussion last night with Jem Havok (10th Planet Melb Blue belt). His advice was identical. Whip Down is the solution.

I'm still trying to implement this but be patient. I think Eddie talked about this in MTS 71(?) and mentioned that in order to develop a strong lockdown game be prepared to be kimura'd and guillotined regularly until you refine the technique.

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Originally Posted by Anthony Herrera

While using lock down your arms should never be just hanging there. You're either gonna have double unders and gable gripping hard on your opponents floater rib or have electric hooks, unless you're fighting to get there. Trust your lockdown bro, stretch it out and swivel your hips around. Just the lockdown alone has saved me from kimuras and armlocks you just have to get comfortable using it. Just like anything if you put in the reps it WILL work for you. :)

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Thanks Anthony, good advice! Gotta admit I usually chill when I've got the lockdown and wait for opponents to either give up or over commit - before setting up either the electric chair, dog fight or just transitioning to full guard. That's probably why they grab a hold of my arm so easily, oops (strange how it's so obviously - yet I never though of that :p )

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Originally Posted by mikel

look up whip down

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Sorry but I'm not sure what you mean by "look up whip down"?

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

Sorry but I'm not sure what you mean by "look up whip down"?

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He means look up the technique "Whip down," which is kind of the opposite of a "Whip up." If you usually whip up to the right side of your body, for example, for the whip down you'd bring the person to your left side, giving you the space/opportunity to bring in and protect your left arm.

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Originally Posted by Jee Kim

He means look up the technique "Whip down," which is kind of the opposite of a "Whip up." If you usually whip up to the right side of your body, for example, for the whip down you'd bring the person to your left side, giving you the space/opportunity to bring in and protect your left arm.

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Ahhh, I see. Thanks dude! :)

Keep your elbows tight. No space between elbow and ribs, no kimura. If he does get wrist control and start hunting kimura, the whip down will force him to release and post. Then get your double unders.

The answer is that you don't have proper underhooks. If you have a good deep underhook that this doesn't happen. Practice finding that underhook in transition so when you get to lock down your ready to work vs. Fighting for an underhook after your in lock down.

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Originally Posted by VJ Bella

The answer is that you don't have proper underhooks. If you have a good deep underhook that this doesn't happen. Practice finding that underhook in transition so when you get to lock down your ready to work vs. Fighting for an underhook after your in lock down.

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That's probably where my problem lies. I don't seem to understand what a "deep underhook" really is.

I used to think this was when my lockdown-side arm was stretched all the way across my opponent's back (i.e. so my armpit is almost touching the side of his stomach/ribs) - but this is where some guys just reach around, grab my wrist, slot their other arm in and set up the kimura.

If they have the space to reach around and grab your wrist behind their back (I'm assuming its their arm that is on the non-lockdown side reaching behind and grabbing your lockdown-side underhook to set-up the kimura), why don't you get up to dogfight? It seems to me it would be a real easy transition since they would be postured almost straight up since they couldn't post with the arm that is reaching behind to mess with your underhook. Unless I'm not understanding whats going on, it seems like that would be one possible solution, especially if you don't have the confidence in your lockdown yet to disrupt his base with just your legs alone.

I am working my botom half lockdown game pretty hard right now. I am finding that I get stuck when guys just base wide. Even if I whip their leg up, guys are just staying heavy, so I can't really whip them up for electric chair, and I can't seem to get them to lean in hard enough to execute Plan B.

I think a lot of it has to do with the weight difference. I am 155and most ofthe guys I am rolling at 210 to 220, so I find them just make it hard to move them. Sooner or later my perseverance usually pays off and I can unsettle their base, but I am finding that they are not having to lean one way or the other so much, they are more or less just staying balanced in the center.

I often times can just take the back when they do that, or at least go for the back and illicit a scramble. I haven't talked to Stew about ityet either, so he hasn't had a chance to correct whatever flaw I have going on there.

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Originally Posted by Kurzy

I am working my botom half lockdown game pretty hard right now. I am finding that I get stuck when guys just base wide. Even if I whip their leg up, guys are just staying heavy, so I can't really whip them up for electric chair, and I can't seem to get them to lean in hard enough to execute Plan B.

I think a lot of it has to do with the weight difference. I am 155and most ofthe guys I am rolling at 210 to 220, so I find them just make it hard to move them. Sooner or later my perseverance usually pays off and I can unsettle their base, but I am finding that they are not having to lean one way or the other so much, they are more or less just staying balanced in the center.

I often times can just take the back when they do that, or at least go for the back and illicit a scramble. I haven't talked to Stew about ityet either, so he hasn't had a chance to correct whatever flaw I have going on there.

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Transition to dogfight.

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

That's probably where my problem lies. I don't seem to understand what a "deep underhook" really is.

I used to think this was when my lockdown-side arm was stretched all the way across my opponent's back (i.e. so my armpit is almost touching the side of his stomach/ribs) - but this is where some guys just reach around, grab my wrist, slot their other arm in and set up the kimura.

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I don't always gable grip low on the hips but if you have a good squeeze an a gable grip around their waist your not getting Kimura . I also bring my right elbow inside their hip as part of the gable grip which will prevent them from turning for Kimura or twister pass. If I'm worried about dance I jump my underhook high on opposite trap an slightly lift my elbow.

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Originally Posted by VJ Bella

I don't always gable grip low on the hips but if you have a good squeeze an a gable grip around their waist your not getting Kimura . I also bring my right elbow inside their hip as part of the gable grip which will prevent them from turning for Kimura or twister pass. If I'm worried about dance I jump my underhook high on opposite trap an slightly lift my elbow.

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Is it possible to gable grip when you've got electric underhooks? (or am I reading that wrong?)

On a side note, Chad mentioned transitioning to the dogfight when a guy goes for the kimura - don't know why I didn't think of it before! Will definitely try that next week :p

Man, the more I read, the more I realise how much I don't know about the lockdown. It's exciting though! You guys are really opening my mind up to loads of new insights. Even when I don't understand certain points - it sure if motivating to know how much further the lockdown can go, and more I can do with it in future (maybe 200 kimuras, 100 americanas and 50 darces later) :D

That's supposed to say worried about the darce...sorry but that.

Just be strong with your squeeze and keep your underhooks deep an an you should be fine.

I have this problem too, especially if my opponent is 30% heavier than me, I just can't whip up or whip down. They then put their forearm to my throat and create distance. When there is enough distance, they will peel off my left arm and go for the Americana. If my opponent is 10% to 20% bigger, I can still manage but if they are 30% or more bigger, I just get stuck. What is the best thing to do against big guys when you are playing the Lockdown?

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Originally Posted by Ricky Ho

I have this problem too, especially if my opponent is 30% heavier than me, I just can't whip up or whip down. They then put their forearm to my throat and create distance. When there is enough distance, they will peel off my left arm and go for the Americana. If my opponent is 10% to 20% bigger, I can still manage but if they are 30% or more bigger, I just get stuck. What is the best thing to do against big guys when you are playing the Lockdown?

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To me, it sounds like you should have already bailed to the Butterfly Guard. The stomp is a great way to do that.

Exactly- whip the fuck out of them.

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Originally Posted by Ricky Ho

I have this problem too, especially if my opponent is 30% heavier than me, I just can't whip up or whip down. They then put their forearm to my throat and create distance. When there is enough distance, they will peel off my left arm and go for the Americana. If my opponent is 10% to 20% bigger, I can still manage but if they are 30% or more bigger, I just get stuck. What is the best thing to do against big guys when you are playing the Lockdown?

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The time I asked this question, Eddie said that many games break down against much larger or stronger opponents.

That being said, what I did was not let them get me flattened out and/or I would get to my side ASAP. I learned to whip up, down, left, and right, destabilizing their base. If they are just trying to squeeze you with head and arm control, then go jaws of life, then whip for the underhooks.

But like has been said, avoid getting there or abandon to butterfly.