http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswaldo_Fadda
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Thanks to Sean Applegate for this info.
If yalls don't know about the Gracie conspiracy, better get to reading.
this dickhole is belted through Fadda's lineage
Wow, thanks for sharing.
Yeah dude, Fadda is my hero. Taught BJJ to the poor heads AND beat the Gracies mostly by leg locks. I've always believed this to be the reason why traditional BJJ is so anti leg locks. Instead of seeing a hole they needed to close, they just labeled them cheap moves. I like the Fadda story.
It seems the sport BJJ world has mostly come around. Am I wrong? Maybe it just took a few decades? Trying to understand this new world I find myself in. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Nah, they're still anti reaping (which is a basic part of leg locks). Imagine if Sambo told you you couldn't use both legs when arm barring. Imagine you could only use judo armbars. Sure some guys use heel hooks when they're allowed, but in general, BJJ is still pretty shy about leg locks, and not great at teaching them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
I can't remember for the life of me who I was talking with about this, but I distinctly remember them saying " If you're in the Gi, the combination of pants, sleeve, reaping, and great technique almost makes it impossible to escape a heel hook due to all the friction." How true this is, I don't know, but if that's the case its easy to understand why they wouldn't allow it.
Easy to understand why all of Fadda's students ethered the Gracies with leg locks. But I mean, if that's the case, wouldn't it make even more sense to train them? It's pretty much check mate. And can't the same be said about armbars? With the sleeves and friction, wouldn't those also be hard to escape? IDK man, seems like a cop out on their end. Bring back reaping and heel hooks. At least at brown and up.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
I think the "Fear" of leg locks, is what keeps people from learning them, and appropriately defending them. I was once afraid, but no longer, I invite everyone to jump on my feet, ankles, and legs. I want to walk through "the fire" that eddie talks about, because especially in NoGi and in the absolute tournaments, that's what you're seeing little guys do to big guys, along with quick back takes, and flying shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Listen guys, while I agree that ibjjf rules are dumb, you're missing the bigger point here.
The story of how BJJ was created, as we know it, is a lie.
If you check out his lineage, it does not contain a Gracie. There were at least two families that created the martial art we love so dearly. The Gracies were the better marketers, however, and won the reputation war. This man was not in BJJ for the money. He gave freely of his knowledge and spread our art to those who could not afford it.
Sean Applegate told us of a story that happened to him, which I hope he comes on here to tell it, but basically those from the Fadda line (mostly in Brazil) either love us or have no problem with us. It's only the Gracies, the marketers.
The Helio filter idea is a lie.
I posted this a while ago. http://www.10thplanetjj.com/threads/...=Oswaldo+Fadda
The link doesn't work...? I smell a conspiracy. I think the Gracies are deleting all "Fadda" history.
The link I had was a lot more detailed. Fadda and his team easily beat Helio & the Gracie team both times.
Who gave Fadda his rank?
There was actually two different challenge events. With Fadda and his team winning both easily.
Couldn't agree more. The essence of the collective ego, right therrre.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Who gave Carlos Gracie his?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
Mitsuyo Maeda → Luiz França → Oswaldo FaddaQuote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
The Gracie’s sons trained with Maeda for somewhere between 2 to 4 years. Maeda then moved to another part of Brazil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge
In 1925, Carlos Gracie opened his own Jiu-Jitsu school. Similar to Jigoro Kano, Gracie had 4 years training (and possibly less) ....Carlos was maybe a purple belt at best( today's standarts) when he first opened his school. Nobody belted him or gave him rank.
And I think that fear was blown out of proportion. I've only been injured twice. Once from a bad judo fall. Once from an overzealous armbar. And I trained with leg lock killers. The leg lock danger is a myth IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
Oh no, I get your point. That's why I brought up the leg locks. That's what Fadda's team use to win most of the matches. Then "coincidentally" leg locks are considered cheap and reaping is evil and bla bla bla. I'm just using leg locks as an example of Fadda's erasure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Davidson
I mean if we boil it down to the nitty gritty it doesn't really matter who did what or who did who. I agree credit should go to where credit is due, but like it says on the pages. França and Carlos Gracie trained at the same time under Mitsuyo Maeda. The gracie filter isn't a lie, the gracie filter is one way of looking at jiu jitsu. Whether you agree with it or not its how they look at it. Fadda's filter is another, 10th Planets is another, Marcelo's is another and we can go on and on and on. I think the biggest oversight of this argument is you're trying to say the Gracie's are full of shit, and In some aspects I agree with you, but in others I don't. There's tons of infighting within the families, there's tons of stuff that one guy told, There's issues about logo rights, and a bunch of other stuff. Everything always stems from how much cash do you have to back your endeavor. If you have tons of money to back a project chances are you're gonna succeed we see this in the real world when it comes to some of these start up companies and other companies that venture capitalists jump on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Davidson
So Ross, I agree with you that not everything should have the "HELIO" Filter, and it's not the end all be all, but without the gracies, we may not be having this conversation today. Without their popularization of the art and the money they pumped into it, we may not be sitting here having a debate on the forum. So I thank the gracies for popularizing Jiu Jitsu, I thank the gracies for bringing it to where it's been. So I think everyone deserves a little credit these days. Without Maeda, Carlos wouldn't have learned, without Carlos, Helio wouldn't have contributed, and the list goes on and on. So I say to everyone thats done anything remotely positive for jiu jitsu, THANK YOU.
Wow that's nuts that this link does't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge
I definitely agree that we wouldn't be here if it weren't for the Gracies. But I think it's important to know about the true history of jiu jitsu. I think too many people use their lineage as a means to discredit other ways of doing jiu jitsu. I'm for sure appreciative of the things the Gracies have done for jiu jitsu. I'm not a fan of how they took credit for its creation and then sought to turn it into something only for those with money.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
Ah I see. I think I was just paying too much attention to the ibjjf rules partQuote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Honestly, it makes no difference to me. Jiu Jitsu is still something to do for people with money. Few places allow free training, and the average cost of jiu jitsu is probably around 100 dollars a month. I've seen more and more people leave due to the monetary strain its put on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Davidson
1) It costs money to get something going,
2) It costs money to keep it going
3) Promotion/Marketing costs money grass roots will only get you so far.
4) Why would you market to a demographic that couldn't continue to support your dream of growing jiu jitsu.
Whether you were trying to strike it rich or not, starting a fledgling idea and getting it more mainstream is going to cost money. Jiu Jitsu at that time was tiny, and when you market it to a group that can pay your idea will grow. If you market it to a group that can barely make ends meet it will only grow so much. I think now as jiu jitsu is larger, teaching jiu jitsu for free to underprivileged, or less fortunate definitely is a great idea. Because although small its not as microscopic as it was when it started it can be grown through persistence, because of media & other outlets (UFC, Bellator, etc.)
Why rush to kill yourself for 50 years in pursuit of money, just so you can retire and enjoy life, when you can enjoy it now, regardless of whether you have money or not.
Why take advantage of each other when we can grow together.
I agree happiness and money are two completely different things. However, if you're looking to promote and get more people on board with something you love, you have to have that passion, but it definitely helps to have a solid financial backing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Davidson
You're right. But if the prestige is more important than thelove....
you can get jiu jitsu fro free in brazil. the brazilians there are great and are extremely open minded. you will get much more flak for being a gringo there, than being a part of 10th planet.
ya'll are all gonna have hits out on you if you keep talkin this jibba jab. gracies invented combat. period.
I thought everyone knew that there were 2 lines of Jiu Jitsu. The Luiz Franca line and the Gracie line
http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...ieira-bjj-wiki
crazier to think that this guy doesn't even practice Gracie Jiu Jitsu
That is the story we have been told.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge
But, as people look more closely at history it has turned out there is a real question as to whether Carlos ever trained with Maeda at all. It is looking like it is possible that he only trained with a student of Maeda's named Donato Pires dos Reis. It is also looking like Carlos didn't open the Academia Gracie in 1925. He only took over Pires Dos Reis's school years later after being an assistant instructor there. Here are some other startling ideas that look like they may be true:
a) it looks like luta livre is truly a progeny of catch wrestling and probably existed in Brazil prior to Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,
b) Maeda was only one of many Kodokan Judo guys in Brazil during this period,
c) the other Kodokan guys were well known and taking a lot of fights in Brazil,
d) George Gracie was fighting way more than Helio,
d) George Gracie trained with a luta livre guy (Dudu) for a while,
e) George Gracie trained with the other Kodokan guys who weren't Maeda,
f) it sounds like Helio actually got his ass kicked in more of his fights than just Kimura,and
g) at one point George separated from Carlos and Helio and wanted to take a fight against Helio until Carlos wouldn't allow Helio to participate.
You can find in-depth discussions of all this in the following threads:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma....2319187&page=1
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12...ty-us-2030347/
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12...gi-gjj-545131/
and also information here on George Gracie:
http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...-facts-and-bio
From reading all of that and other sources, here is how it looks like it really went down to me:
The Setting:
Brazil in the first half of the last century.
The characters:
Japanese Judo/Jiu-Jitsu guys,
European & American Catch Wrestlers,
Brazilian Catch Wrestlers (i.e. luta livre guys),
the Gracies,
the Fadda/Franca guys, and
others.
What happened:
Carnivals, Circuses, and other variety type live performance shows were holding combat sports type matches as part of their programs. These types of matches became very popular in Brazil. European and American Catch Wrestlers showed up in Brazil to tour around and do these matches. Japanese Judo/Jiu-Jitsu guys showed up in Brazil to do these matches. There were many matches both with and without the jacket. Some of these grapplers stayed in Brazil, some left. Both groups taught people their disciplines while in Brazil. Judo/Jiu-Jitsu information was also disseminated in Brazil by translations of the Hancock book published in 1905. There was much competing against each other, and a decent degree of training and teaching with each other. The progeny of the Judo guys absorbed much catch. The progeny of the catch guys absorbed much judo. The guys who trained with the jacket are now called BJJ guys. The guys who trained without the jacket are now called luta livre guys.
Anti-Litigation Disclaimer: I'm not claiming the information above as fact. I'm just saying there is information out there that seems to be indicating those things and everyone can review that information in order to decide for themselves. So don't sue me, Torrance.
Just for a little visual context, here is a picture of Maeda (looks like CACC doesn't it?):
http://www.graciemag.com/pt/wp-conte...o-no-braco.jpg
Here are some pics of luta livre founder Euclydes Hatem (again looks like CACC, right?):
http://www.lutalivresubmission.com.br/imgs/tatu001.jpg
http://www.lutalivresubmission.com.br/imgs/tatu002.jpg
http://www.lutalivresubmission.com.br/imgs/tatu006.jpg
To me, the BJJ/Gracie origin story looks a lot more complicated now than the story we were told in the '90s.
The bigger lie comes from Helio being such a frail and weak boy like he was dying or something and couldn't train. He was only a thin boy and they make it seem like he learned by watching and taking notes from his deathbed. Suddenly one day he rose from the dead because of BJj and started choking people lol
That's some interesting stuff, Jack!
lololol true. he was actually bigger than carlos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericp
dope Thread!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
History is written by the winners - Napoleon
The Gracie spin zone. What b.s. Helio would go up some stairs and almost pass out. So, so weak! Then the next moment he's in a hour long challenge match. lmao. Helio is the Peter Parker of HerosQuote:
Originally Posted by Ericp
Attachment 2947
John Goodman invented Jiu Jitsu?