Did Police "Choke" NY Man to Death? (Gracie Breakdown)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nql1...em-uploademail


On July 17, 2014, Eric Garner (6' 4" - 350 lbs) died immediately after an altercation with officers of the New York Police Department regarding the selling of un-taxed cigarettes. The incident was caught on video, and during the altercation one of the officers applied a neck restraint to control Mr. Garner and get him to the ground. Although the mainstream media has clung onto the idea that the "choke-hold" is what caused my Garner's death, Ryron and Rener offer their own opinions on the incident based on their experience as life-long jiu-jitsu practitioners and lead defensive tactics instructors of the Gracie Survival Tactics (GST) program for law enforcement. The Gracie brothers also discuss the challenges that arise when arresting subjects with pre-existing medical conditions and demonstrate some of the GST techniques that enable officers to control and arrest unruly subjects with the least amount of force possible.

Extended version of the incident.

http://youtu.be/ajhpFT-lVZY


They killed him.

My 2cents.

Is it extremely sad this occurred over what seems so petty, yes.

Did the cop use an appropriate technique to subdue him, no.

Did the choke cause his death, no.

Could it have been handled differently, maybe AND

Would he still be alive if he had simply allowed the police to handcuff him and process him, yes.

You fight/argue charges in court, once the police have the intention of charging you and processing you any resistance/argument only makes it worse and ZERO positive can come from it.

In this case sadly it resulted in death, hopefully everyone can learn from it.

Edit - After watching the extended vid, should the cop in the '99' jersey that waved at the camera face disciplinary action, yes.

Smh :(

The way he was screaming 'I can't breath' makes it seem as though they crushed his wind pipe or he had an asthma attack. To me that suggests an accident in terms of the action itself (note: I am not saying that to forcibly subdue him was the right action, I'm saying that once the choice to subdue him has been made I don't think they tried to hurt/kill him). It wasn't as if the guy choked him out and help the choke on for 45 seconds or something (which is what I feared when I heard about this story). In fact, as soon as the guy shouts 'I can't breathe' the guy releases the hold.

The guy waving at the camera though… I just don't have words for that. Absolutely disgusting.

As the Gracies say: a guy lost his life over selling untaxed cigarettes. Nothing about this is acceptable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Apperz

In fact, as soon as the guy shouts 'I can't breathe' the guy releases the hold.

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You may have been watching with very low volume. He's saying he can't breathe from the beginning and the cop holds it a bit longer.

I'd like to hear what a law enforcement officer has to say. Maybe I'm not up to date on acceptable takedown methods, but I don't beleive the choke hold is one of those acceptable moves.

Granted, the video appears edited. I'm not sure if they did inform him that he is being detained. If they did, then he should've lawyered up. But he didn't need to lose his life over it.

Problem number one: escalation. They went from 0-60 too fast. The only things left were to use weapons. Hell, pepper spray would've been a better idea than a choke hold.

Problem number two: medical attention. It's not hard to tell when a guy stops breathing. At that point, you get medical attention. CPR. Anything. Instead they try to act like the guy is still alive.


They killed him. Whether it was the choke hold or negligence. Either way, they killed him. If they did everything correctly to bring him down and cuff him, fine. But once they saw that he was clearly not breathing, they killed him by doing little to nothing to keep him alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7NYT07e1mw

result of over aggressive tactics, no knowledge of airway management and emergency first aid...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7NYT07e1mw

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Murder and manslaugher are different things. But in the end they're similar in that one party kills another party. Was it deliberate? No. So it wasn't murder. Fine. They can get away with that technicality like George Zimmerman got away with that technicality. But their actions led to his death. Their negligence led to his death. The appropriate charges should be brought up. If they at least tried to keep the guy alive, then we can dismiss this. But the man died due to negligence. There is no way around that.

Here's another video for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT66U_Ftdng


At the end they ask, why isn't anyone doing CPR? The cops claims the guy is breathing. That's straight up stupid. When a person suffers cardiac arrest, they are often still breathing. It's just shallow gasps. The guy, if he actually was breathing (which I doubt) was showing classic signs of cardiac arrest and they did nothing about it. They didn't need to do full blown CPR. But they should've been at least trying with chest compressions.

http://heart.arizona.edu/frequently-asked-questions

A man died as a result of their actions in their custody. That's the beginning and end of the story. Evertythign else is arguing techincalities.

I just posted his opinion. That's all. I'm with you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

I'd like to hear what a law enforcement officer has to say. Maybe I'm not up to date on acceptable takedown methods, but I don't beleive the choke hold is one of those acceptable moves.

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I was going to stay out of this, but decided to give my prospective from a retired law enforcement officer point of view. I medically retired in April with 15 years of service, 5 with a Sheriff’s department and 10 on a federal tactical team. Also for 11 of those years I was a defensive tactics instructor. I will give you a very sterile black and white view. I am not going to approve or disapprove of the actions of the officers. I was not there, I don’t know the level of their training, I don’t know their department’s use of force continuum, etc. It is very easy to arm chair quarterback a situation like this and I am choosing not to do that.
Officers are taught to operate off of a use of force continuum that operates in steps. Each level of force and the tactics that can be used at that level are dependent on the level of resistance offered by the subject being taken into custody. Generally the levels of resistance/techniques that can be used are: verbal noncompliance and passive resistance /come along techniques, pepper spray, tazers ; defensive resistance/joint locks and takedown techniques; active resistance/baton and striking techniques; and aggravated active resistance/deadly force. Then there are mitigating factors that also contribute to what level of force is justified by the officer, like size mismatch, perceived threats, or even past use of force history with the individual.
To answer your question about the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint), or as you put choke, is taught as a takedown method by some departments. This technique is placed at different levels of force by different departments. Some place its use low and others much higher. The departments I worked for placed the LVNR at the deadly force level, but others place it as a takedown technique. When used as a control tactic, you are not putting the squeezing pressure on, you are just controlling the body.
Here is something else to think about. We are all here on this forum because of jiu jitsu. We all train and most of us quite often. Now imagine you only get to train twice a year for 8 hours (if you are lucky). How proficient do you think your jiu jitsu would be? The reality is law enforcement training budgets suck, and they are also some of the first things to get cut, and the skill sets that that they need to call upon are perishable skills. I don’t know what specifically caused this mans death, nor am I trying to rationalize or justify it. Was it improper technique? Was it Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome (SICDS), or Positional Asphyxia (you can google those and do your own research)? Was it negligence? I don’t know and I won’t make assumptions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobyshell

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to give my prospective from a retired law enforcement officer point of view. I medically retired in April with 15 years of service, 5 with a Sheriff’s department and 10 on a federal tactical team. Also for 11 of those years I was a defensive tactics instructor. I will give you a very sterile black and white view. I am not going to approve or disapprove of the actions of the officers. I was not there, I don’t know the level of their training, I don’t know their department’s use of force continuum, etc. It is very easy to arm chair quarterback a situation like this and I am choosing not to do that.
Officers are taught to operate off of a use of force continuum that operates in steps. Each level of force and the tactics that can be used at that level are dependent on the level of resistance offered by the subject being taken into custody. Generally the levels of resistance/techniques that can be used are: verbal noncompliance and passive resistance /come along techniques, pepper spray, tazers ; defensive resistance/joint locks and takedown techniques; active resistance/baton and striking techniques; and aggravated active resistance/deadly force. Then there are mitigating factors that also contribute to what level of force is justified by the officer, like size mismatch, perceived threats, or even past use of force history with the individual.
To answer your question about the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint), or as you put choke, is taught as a takedown method by some departments. This technique is placed at different levels of force by different departments. Some place its use low and others much higher. The departments I worked for placed the LVNR at the deadly force level, but others place it as a takedown technique. When used as a control tactic, you are not putting the squeezing pressure on, you are just controlling the body.
Here is something else to think about. We are all here on this forum because of jiu jitsu. We all train and most of us quite often. Now imagine you only get to train twice a year for 8 hours (if you are lucky). How proficient do you think your jiu jitsu would be? The reality is law enforcement training budgets suck, and they are also some of the first things to get cut, and the skill sets that that they need to call upon are perishable skills. I don’t know what specifically caused this mans death, nor am I trying to rationalize or justify it. Was it improper technique? Was it Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome (SICDS), or Positional Asphyxia (you can google those and do your own research)? Was it negligence? I don’t know and I won’t make assumptions.

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holy crap thanks... Use of force continuum is huge in situations like these.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobyshell

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to give my prospective from a retired law enforcement officer point of view. I medically retired in April with 15 years of service, 5 with a Sheriff’s department and 10 on a federal tactical team. Also for 11 of those years I was a defensive tactics instructor. I will give you a very sterile black and white view. I am not going to approve or disapprove of the actions of the officers. I was not there, I don’t know the level of their training, I don’t know their department’s use of force continuum, etc. It is very easy to arm chair quarterback a situation like this and I am choosing not to do that.
Officers are taught to operate off of a use of force continuum that operates in steps. Each level of force and the tactics that can be used at that level are dependent on the level of resistance offered by the subject being taken into custody. Generally the levels of resistance/techniques that can be used are: verbal noncompliance and passive resistance /come along techniques, pepper spray, tazers ; defensive resistance/joint locks and takedown techniques; active resistance/baton and striking techniques; and aggravated active resistance/deadly force. Then there are mitigating factors that also contribute to what level of force is justified by the officer, like size mismatch, perceived threats, or even past use of force history with the individual.
To answer your question about the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint), or as you put choke, is taught as a takedown method by some departments. This technique is placed at different levels of force by different departments. Some place its use low and others much higher. The departments I worked for placed the LVNR at the deadly force level, but others place it as a takedown technique. When used as a control tactic, you are not putting the squeezing pressure on, you are just controlling the body.
Here is something else to think about. We are all here on this forum because of jiu jitsu. We all train and most of us quite often. Now imagine you only get to train twice a year for 8 hours (if you are lucky). How proficient do you think your jiu jitsu would be? The reality is law enforcement training budgets suck, and they are also some of the first things to get cut, and the skill sets that that they need to call upon are perishable skills. I don’t know what specifically caused this mans death, nor am I trying to rationalize or justify it. Was it improper technique? Was it Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome (SICDS), or Positional Asphyxia (you can google those and do your own research)? Was it negligence? I don’t know and I won’t make assumptions.

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That was super informative. I appreciate the info. It does help shed some light on the situation. It also breaks my heart to know that police training is underfunded.

Law enforcement is the only "profession" that claims the right to initiate violence on peaceful people who have harmed no one else. If you owe the government or they merely think you may own them money, they will fuck you up to get that revenue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobyshell

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to give my prospective from a retired law enforcement officer point of view. I medically retired in April with 15 years of service, 5 with a Sheriff’s department and 10 on a federal tactical team. Also for 11 of those years I was a defensive tactics instructor. I will give you a very sterile black and white view. I am not going to approve or disapprove of the actions of the officers. I was not there, I don’t know the level of their training, I don’t know their department’s use of force continuum, etc. It is very easy to arm chair quarterback a situation like this and I am choosing not to do that.
Officers are taught to operate off of a use of force continuum that operates in steps. Each level of force and the tactics that can be used at that level are dependent on the level of resistance offered by the subject being taken into custody. Generally the levels of resistance/techniques that can be used are: verbal noncompliance and passive resistance /come along techniques, pepper spray, tazers ; defensive resistance/joint locks and takedown techniques; active resistance/baton and striking techniques; and aggravated active resistance/deadly force. Then there are mitigating factors that also contribute to what level of force is justified by the officer, like size mismatch, perceived threats, or even past use of force history with the individual.
To answer your question about the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint), or as you put choke, is taught as a takedown method by some departments. This technique is placed at different levels of force by different departments. Some place its use low and others much higher. The departments I worked for placed the LVNR at the deadly force level, but others place it as a takedown technique. When used as a control tactic, you are not putting the squeezing pressure on, you are just controlling the body.
Here is something else to think about. We are all here on this forum because of jiu jitsu. We all train and most of us quite often. Now imagine you only get to train twice a year for 8 hours (if you are lucky). How proficient do you think your jiu jitsu would be? The reality is law enforcement training budgets suck, and they are also some of the first things to get cut, and the skill sets that that they need to call upon are perishable skills. I don’t know what specifically caused this mans death, nor am I trying to rationalize or justify it. Was it improper technique? Was it Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome (SICDS), or Positional Asphyxia (you can google those and do your own research)? Was it negligence? I don’t know and I won’t make assumptions.

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Very good, insightful post, thanks for sharing.

Reading your point on budgets, it's disappointing how self defence training is so limited, considering that would (should?) be the primary form/option of defence for officers. I mean, without some serious confidence in your martial art(s), pulling out that taser or gun just seems all the more likely (honestly, if I trained martial arts for only 8 - 16 hours a YEAR, I'd probably never want to engage another human being with only my hands and legs). If anything, this is one thing that has to change (at a top level).

I could only imagine that simply being required to train BJJ for a minimum 1 hour per week would be helpful to keep these guys at peace, in shape, and confident in their hand to hand enought to avoid escalating things so quickly.

Choke hold by cop killed NY man, medical examiner says


http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/justic...ath/index.html

It was the knee on back. Damn near positive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge

Choke hold by cop killed NY man, medical examiner says


http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/justic...ath/index.html

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PBA slams medical examiner’s report on Eric Garner's death: ‘It is not a chokehold’

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...#ixzz39a9lUHi9

These fucking pigs are out of control and if you don't know that for a fact, you aren't paying attention. Their approach is immediate violence to answer anyone who dares to question or deny their authority. This guy died from their assault. I can't say he's "lucky" they didn't just shoot him, because he still died, but I can say I am surprised they used physical force instead of just shooting him.
If you aren't seeing police brutality, corruption and authority abuse everywhere you look, you aren't looking.

And fuck the PBA.

“The mayor needs to support New York City police officers unequivocally"

Blow me. These guys join a gang with a uniform and they get away with murder on a daily basis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurzy

These fucking pigs are out of control and if you don't know that for a fact, you aren't paying attention. Their approach is immediate violence to answer anyone who dares to question or deny their authority. This guy died from their assault. I can't say he's "lucky" they didn't just shoot him, because he still died, but I can say I am surprised they used physical force instead of just shooting him.
If you aren't seeing police brutality, corruption and authority abuse everywhere you look, you aren't looking.

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I fully agree. They are out of control. To protect and serve my ass!

Yep, all 120,000+ LE Officers are out of control, power hungry, fucking pigs.

They should have just given him a warning and let him go. Then tell him if we see you back doing the same thing you will be in trouble then. He was not stealing or breaking any thing or hurting another person or threatening somebody. Only way I can see the cops aressting him is if they know him to have a criminal record.