https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50ee_bM99MEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50ee_bM99ME
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I've held some big sweaty fuckers in my RG without tights before. I get what he's saying but I still think the RG is the way to go. Not just for posture but for methodically getting that sub without giving up space or risking him escaping mid transition. Just my white belt theory though! I tapped out a purple belt over the weekend and I could see that helpless look in his eyes as I went from mission control, double bagged, chill dog, invisible collar, pumped the arms in and took the arm bar. Not always the case but I find the RG one of the best methods for me personally to get the finish.
I hear you - like anything, it depends how much you've practiced it.
Rickson was talking about a Vale Tudo guard in the podcast with Eddie - I think he meant something like in the video here.
9/10 times a guy says they don't like RG is because they failed a couple times with RG. And yet they'll put in 1000 reps of berimbolo until they get it right. Silly logic.
Until I know that a guy has put in the reps and learned the system, I can't take their opinion on rubber guard serious.
Coach Zog told me about when he first started using it. Told me that guys would smash through. Guys would pass easily. And this is a man with decades of grappling experience. But he put in the work to get it right. That's how things work. Put in the work. Don't just drop it because it didn't work perfectly the first time.
I agree 100%. It's as if someone breaks their RG the first time so they hop on the anti-rubber guard band wagon. Laziness and ignorance!Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
So, first he argues that rubber guard isn't secure enough to hold a sweaty shirtless guy. Then he demonstrates a control position that is much less secure. Obviously he said he isn't into clinching but this doesn't reaaaally solve much. Guy on top is going to be a lot more mobile, his way. I figure that's more or less doubling the opponent's potential ways to pass. Chances of backing out completely are even better.
If you want to play a totally distance-based guard game, that's cool. People have made it work. But you need to pray the other guy isn't much better than you at striking. I think that was a lot of Eddie's point when he was talking with Rickson.
I'd prefer butterflies anyway if I were doing that...
Funny how this comes out after the podcast with Rickson. Rickson didn't say to clinch and he didn't say create distance. He said to be in the range that is most appropriate to the situation. If the guy promotes smashing and close contact then you clinch and if the guy insists on creating distance to strike then you have to create enough distance while you are striking them so that you don't get hit.
What Eddie always says is still valid. You have to have game from the clinch. But if you cannot control the guy then you have to create space and strike from the bottom so that you can get up as Rickson said.
I love you man...Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Probably a good idea to have something like this in your tool bag along with the rubber guard.. either keep them too close, or too far away. But if they want to keep it standing and you want to keep them down.. rubber guard.
I guess the real question is, are we gonna see someone in the modern MMA big leagues prove that you can pull guard and hold down a guy who doesn't want to be there with an upper body clinch?
We've see leg-lock guys like Palhares pull guard and dominate with lower-body work, but I guess this is still kind of an open question for the 10th planet style.
an idea i've been thinking about
i think it is often overlooked that wrestlers or top game dominant grapplers are putting in tons of reps of keeping posture and controlling in the guard, especially since those reps are universal with regards to which type of closed guard they work on.
for instance. top game fighter A puts in 1000 reps of guard opening and keeping upright posture for traditional closed guard or rg (same principles and technique for not getting broken and/or held down)
guard fighter B starts working rg relatively early in their training puts in maybe 200 reps trad closed guard then 800 reps rg.
i think fighter A is still going to keep from being broken down and controlled almost every time.
until we gets guys in there that have been working a 10th planet guard for as long as a collegiate wrestler has been working their game on top it is an unfair comparison.
no issues with the 10th planet style. i think it is a numbers and time in thing. i wonder if paul harris had an advantage of leglocks being a less popular type of attack in mma so wrestlers haven't put in anywhere near as many reps of defending their feet compared to defending closed guard attacks.
who knows
Don't forget that in MMA if the top guy is using both hands to push down and posture, he will be open to the bottom mans strikes.
I remember watching Mir/Lesnar 1 and Rogan saying "so and so said he would tap him with a leg lock, wrestlers are really vulnerable to them". My wrestling knowledge sucks so i'm not sure why, and I could be remembering wrong. But it came to mind when I read this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Toffolo
For the vid in the OP, it's for a different objective. That could be a great guard if you need to minimize damage and get back to your feet as fast as you can. It is however not a good option if you are in a situation where you need to win off your back.
Scenarios where rubber guard is promoted as a good option:
You're losing the standup battle and you can't take the opponent down.
You may be the better standup fighter, but your opponent's wrestling is keeping you on your back (think the first chael sonnen vs Silva fight).
In both the above situations, your only option is to win off your back. You need a game that allows you to have an offensive attack style off your back. That is what rubber guard is offering.
The point that was being made with Kron and him using a distance style guard like the one in OP is that eventually he will run into an opponent who has good takedown defense and is a stronger striker than Kron. Given Kron's skillset, it's likely he will run into this type of opponent quite often. When this happens, how will he win? He will have to win from his back and a smart opponent will simply step backwards and make him stand up when he uses a distance style guard. We have seen this plenty of times with other BJJ heavy guys.
Rubber guard has been used to end fights and minimize damage plenty of times in MMA. It's not a popular option yet, but it has been "proven".Quote:
Originally Posted by Elisha J Baker
I really don't think it works that way.. 1000 reps breaking vs 1000 reps rubber guard. It definitely doesn't work that way in BJJ. The same situation exists, my opponent has put in a 1000 posture up guard breaking drills yet when I put him in RG, he doesn't know how to react. It's a different game and needs a different defense. It's very easy using RG against guys who haven't felt it before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Toffolo
There is also a big difference in the ease of grabbing a high closed guard in MMA. Anytime they go to throw a punch, they are breaking their own posture. Unlike in BJJ, they are not going to focus on using both of their hands to push, posture and stand up. They feel comfortable staying in the guard and ground and pounding. Watch practically any fight in closed guard. Their head is down, hands on the mat or the chest, shuffle shuffle throw a punch. They are constantly giving up posture, overhooks, etc. They have to in order to strike.
It's not hard to get or to hold rubber guard here, the risk is if you play rubber guard, you are committing to staying and working off your back. So in order to take this risk, you need to be in one of the scenarios I talked about above or just be so confident in your RG game that you know you'll get a sub.
I've seen rubber guard work in MMA and I'm all for it. I just haven't seen it in a super high-profile fight where the guy getting put in rubber guard is a good wrestler who doesn't particularly want to be on the ground, but is getting dragged down anyway. I'm not saying it won't work, and it's not like I've seen all the thousands of smaller-promotion fights where it might have happened. I guess I want to see this happen in the big show. If it does I'll be cheering like a maniac. ;)
Though now that I think about it a bit more, props to Aoki - he's definitely on that path.
This video seems to demonstrate a very reductionist way of thinking about the situation. It demonstrates the possibility of a certain guard working against an opponent throwing punches from and specific distance and angle. It lacks the idea of combining punches with passes, or anything else you could combine or use.
What if the person on top puts a whizzer on the outside leg of his opponent, and forces his opponent to play z-guard or straighten his leg. The person on top could then remove his whizzer and control their hip or throw punches while continuing to keep enough pressure against his z-guard, and inhibiting him from kicking off as demonstrated in the video. This would then force his opponent to keep the knee shield and play from z-guard, or straighten his outside leg and play traditional/lockdown.
I've seen plenty of mma fights where a person on bottom plays z-guard and gets lit up with punches (Mark Munoz vs Tim Boetsch).