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http://www.bjjscandinavia.com/2014/0...e-lapel-guard/
He's talking about the lapel guard but the same could be said about 10th Planet in relation to the 10p haters.
"To be afraid of change is what really hinders the sport. Progress is impossible without change, and those who can’t change their minds can’t change anything."
Anyway, I'm still looking forward to Metamoris 4 but my money is on Vinny and his Chuck Norris-like arm.
I believe the lapel guard game he plays is great for sport jiu-jitsu, but I also believe your techniques should work no matter the competition (gi, no-gi, MMA, and self defense.) That's why I like 10th planet jiu-jitsu, because everything is based on what's effective and everyone has an open mind. My old hapkido instructor told me that you can be a badass black belt in any martial art, but you get so used to the forms presented to you from that art, when the conditions aren't suitable for them even black belts cannot defend themselves even as able as they are. It can happen to anyone and we all have to remember that it all comes down to why you train, self defense or sport.
I believe Joe Rogan talked about point-style TKD compared to real knockout style TKD before. Who would you rather go against? A point style TKD black belt slapping you with his foot or eat one of Joe Rogan's kicks? It's more effective when it's more applicable and more replicatable in a real situation. That's where I think the arguement should be, not about making change in jiu-jitsu. The closed guard is a very effective change in every situation. You cannot get the hammer dropped on you as easily from closed compared to open guard in situations where there is striking. Plus you cannot be passed until you open up in every situation. It improved the art of jiu jitsu which the main purpose is self defense. It makes jiu jitsu look better in every form (gi, no-gi, MMA, self defense.) The worm guard improves only gi and certain situations of self defense. Jiu-Jitsu isn't something that works in certain situations, you should be able to apply your game anytime, any condition, any variables to defend yourself properly.
I believe some controversial moves in Jiu-Jitsu can be effective in a real situation, but you have to be mindful of the conditions at hand. I wouldn't risk playing inverted, berimbolos, or whatever new lapel guard in most situations because what if I am rolling around in glass on the ground or if I'm trying to tie him up with his sweatshirt and he just pulls out of it and I'm getting my worm on with his sweatshirt and he kicks me square in the nuggets. I even stopped doing double legs wrestler style with the knee on the ground and everything because of self defense I may injure my knee on something that could penetrate my knee. I learned that from an NCAA wrestler that's also a brown belt, so it's not like I lost technique by not dropping my knee, but if the situation calls for a double leg I am more able to protect my body from injury most of the time.
I'm not saying it's bad jiu-jitsu if you practice sport heavy, self defense light moves, I mean you are practicing real grappling skills and concepts any move you work on. You will improve your grappling skills while working these moves, but I don't believe you will be able to defend yourself better than someone with 70% your skill, but totally self defense oriented. Even if you whoop on them in training pure sport jits where the advantages are within your rule set :) Have you ever gone against a wrestler than can out-wrestle the crap out of you, but you can tap them if they slip up somehow and they barely tap you? That's what I mean by the difference between self defense and grappling skill. A lot of wrestlers I used to wrestle with could beat the crap out of me in wrestling. However, if we were playing submissions I could go to my back or somehow end up on top and finish them. Their GRAPPLING SKILLS were much greater than mine. However, my execution of jiu-jitsu based grappling beat out their superior GRAPPLING SKILLS from wrestling most of the time when we did submissions or MMA rules. I could apply jiu-jitsu in a situation closer to a real conflict than a wrestler could even if they were more skilled at the art of grappling itself. The same concepts apply in both sports and any way you play them. However the more applicable your skill set is to variation, I believe the better it is for self defense. You play lockdown half guard the same way in gi, no-gi, MMA, or Self defense. You play rubber guard the same way, you play deep hook armbars the same way, etc. We can't let jiu-jitsu turn into karate with too much emphasis on sport, that's not the whole point of jiu-jitsu. It's supposed to be the most effective martial art, not the martial art that has more evolution than others. The evolution comes with the effectiveness of the art transcending any rule set, not the invention of some new way to immobilize people with their with own pant string when they have long enough pant string on the outside of their pants or whatever is next. This is all my opinion. Hope I didn't offend anyone :P
I think every variation and every new techniques is valuable and good, both for sports jiu jitsu AND self defense.. because the more variations you have in your sleeves the more options you have to be able to react to upcoming situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge
I believe that too, but I'm not talking about variations. The worm guard is the worm guard, but it's also a guard variation. There's 1000s of guard variations, but I'm not going to do a variation that leaves me vulnerable to getting hammer fisted repeatedly if I don't have a sleeve to latch onto. I'm going to do a clinch variation in MMA, like Eddie talks about. I'm not going to do open variations or gi-based variations on someone in the cage. That's why a lot of BJJ players are looking silly nowadays. They can be decorated tournament black belt, but get their head split open in the cage or on the street because of this. It's not valuable for real (self defense) jiu jitsu. If it works in sport, but you absolutely need someone to not strike you or hope they have clothes that can cater the grips to set it up then you aren't practicing jiu jitsu in essence. Yes, you are practicing grappling, but jiu jitsu is bottom line self defense. You might see some sport moves in the cage or even on the street, but the amount of danger in something like trying to setup worm guard while punches fly compared to something that is less chaotic and more foolproof like swaying under a punch within your guard and catching an arm triangle choke. Something like that. I'm not a big fan of sport jiu jitsu so I have a harsher opinion on this than most. I don't even like using the gi to play open guards like spider or anything else that much. I am aware of it and I have some pathways within those games, I'm not saying it doesn't work. I just don't see the need of putting yourself in danger to effectively dispatch a threat/opponent. If anything it's more ineffective if you use a sport move to look fancy such as sitting down to preform a berimbolo and you shred your shoulders and back up on broken glass in the parking lot when you could have dumped them onto the glass. I know what your thinking, "I'm not just going to drop down and berimbolo someone in a parking lot fight"... My response is, "Exactly."Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Rüegg
If there is a time you can do a De La Riva when someone stands on you in the middle of a fight, maybe you could hit that berimbolo, but it's not something you can actively work towards (easily) in a self defense situation or MMA without taking damage or the threat of damage. You might pull it off, but it will be much more difficult to hit that than something like a clinch to a takedown, thus making it a less effective self defense move and something that should be at least recognized as a sport move rather than an art move of jiu jitsu. It should keep you safe while defeating the threat, not a hail mary that can go many of ways.
This is true, but I don't think that Keenan doing the worm guard is hampering his self defense. I'm not even addressing you specifically, but a lot of people said that guys that play a lot of inverted stuff would get killed in a real fight, but look at what Ryan Hall did in the fight in the pizza parlor. he blast doubled the guy and put him out with a RNC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge
Grappling gets you comfortable with demanding physical contact with aggressive opponents. Against the average person with no training, any blue belt is going to do just fine Some people out there would have you believe that in a fight, Keenan Cornelius would pull spiral guard in the street. That's crazy IMO. He would throw the dude on his head and strangle him. When Keenan faced Kevin Casey at Metamoris 3, Casey has great MMA training, but Keenan took him down, mounted him, and eventually finished him later.
Most people that play sport jiu jitsu at a high level do it for fun, and honestly aren't that interested in training self defense. Again, I guess it's possible that Rafael Mendes might find himself unable to deal with someone bear hugging him from behind, but I have a feeling that whoever grabbed him might be going to the hospital long before Rafa dives into a flying berimbolo.
These guys also have the basics down. For all the fancy guard work that Rafa Mendes does, watch his matches in Abu Dhabi, besides Cobrinha. He sweeps guys right to the top or the back and then mashes them with pressure and eventually subs them. Geo and Jeff Glover at the EBI had a lot of double guard, berimbolos, 50/50, but I've seen Geo and Glover both pass guard like butter and finish people with basic submissions.
Good article and video.
Ryan Hall Weighs In On 'Sport Vs Street' Debate In Martial Arts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJX9QnrZtfc
I agree all the way with Ryan Hall on sport vs. self defense Jiu-Jitsu:
"Those people (that claim that training jiu jitsu for competition makes you less able to defend yourself because you train in techniques that are not useful in a real, self-defense situation) are wrong, to be frank. Anyone who doesn't realize that situation dictates tactics really can't be helped.
Although I can see a certain level of a point. The angle that makes sense to me is that combative martial arts which creates excellent combative athletes and fighters, like jiu jitsu, wrestling and boxing, while they don't train you for is self-defense, they train you for single combat. I don't care if this person tried to eye gouge me or if they bite me, it is irrelevant. If I want to hurt this person, they don't have a prayer in the world.
The physical tactics don't change. It is really the mental and the understanding of things. Its like - letting this person get too close because if they have a blade, they can cut you well before you'd be able to see it if they are really, really quick.
I think you see a lot of martial arts instructors tying to pass themselves off as self-defense experts, which I am certainly not. I'm a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu competitor, practicer, call it whatever you want. And I know a good deal about self-defense because I'm interested in it... but I'm certainly not an expert. But the idea that John Smith is known for his low single, he better watch out for some angry guy on the Jersey Shore because he wouldn't be able to double leg that guy. Get the fuck out of here...
It is like Manny Pacquiao, I don't care if there are gloves or not, if he hits you, your head is coming off and there is no amount of me practicing an eye gouge that is going to stop him from doing that because he is so used to just dealing with someone who is incredibly good at touching him in the head really, really fast and really, really hard. It doesn't matter what shape my hand is in, he is incredibly good at stopping that and he is incredibly good at countering...
So I would completely disagree. I'd say most of the people that say that practice for self-defense and don't train with tough athletes are really doing themselves a disservice. If I can wrestle with, say, Division I collegiate All-Americans and do fine. If I can wrestle with Marcelo Garcia and do ok, what the hell is some regular guy going to do? The only chance they have is to sucker punch me because anything that engages in an actual engagement of physical combat, I would absolutely hammer this person.
That is like saying "Oh yeah, I'm going to go strike out some guys in the Major Leagues because I'm gonna spit on the ball" Get out of here, it is ridiculous! If you take that though process and apply to any other area of life people would laugh at you.
You'll see people expressing jiu jitsu or wrestling or boxing in kinda a little bit of an esoteric way every now and then because competition incentives that because they are competing against other elite level athletes and that is where they find their edge. But when you take someone out of an elite level situation, and have them go against some regular guy... the idea that there is some super sweet badass dude walking around, everyone knows how easy it is to beat up all the white belts when they come in on the first day of jiu jitsu or how easy it to just beast a guy up who just comes into a boxing gym the first day. Those are the guys walking around in real life.
Because you compete and because you train athletically against resisting opponents, who are not only strong and fast, but they know exactly what you're going to do and they know how to stop you and how to get you themselves, it prepares you to deal with something like this very easily. So basically I feel the whole sport vs street argument is retarded unless you want to start talking about awareness and avoidance and things like that.
Rules are made. Rules are bent/stretched/exploited. Don't hate.
The ibjjf is reaping what they've sowed. Either you can grab the f'n gi or you can't. Choose.
Also, anybody that can successfully lapel their way into top 3 in the jj world will be fine in a street fight. Any arguement will come from an armchair qb. Fuck em.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Kavanagh
I think that making jiujitsu less realistic is not progress.
Well maybe I haven't had enough exposure to seeing the newer things in practice. I will take this into consideration all this information. I wasn't saying it doesn't work by the way. I just meant if that's all you practice, you have the potential for a lot more to go wrong if you have to change it up for some reason. I stated in my other comments you can make it work, but variables make it much more dangerous and a less perferable jumping point. I said if you happen to be in a position the opponent stands over top of you, you may be able to pull off the berimbolo, but the way I usually see it set up is a guy sitting on his ass waiting for the berimbolo in which I think it loses its practical effectiveness executing it in such a way. I know it is the rule set that makes it this way, like I said, maybe I need more exposure to it before I accept it as just another part of jiu jitsu. It probably just the way people go about it waiting for it and the tactic seems impractical to everyone even though it is an early application to a move not yet fully configured to where we can go from hand fighting to dropping for berimbolos yet. I'm just speculating in my comment now lol. Do you think I feel like this and many others do just because of the tactics currently used to pull this newer stuff off? It is sometimes rather boring to watch black belts who play tug-o-war for first place in order to pull off all this new stuff and it seems these tactics lack the variability for everyone to be exposed to a higher level of new age material. I mean, there is more and more coming out everyday. I see a lot of new material on things that haven't been around a long time. Maybe it's just in a process of evolution. Any other thoughts on this?
There's definitely a lot that can go wrong if that's all you practice, but I think we could say that about almost every position there is. People have to keep in mind when they watch high level competitors how single-focused everything is. 99% of the top players have 1 or 2 go-to techniques from the bottom, top, and to finish. They have a super streamlined "competition game" so even if you see them in the academy doing everything, when it's time to go to the Worlds or ADCC, they have a few moves they do and that's it. They get to the positions where they need to be in order to execute those techniques and they go after them relentlessly. When you see Rafa Mendes or the Miyao bros go for berimbolo after berimbolo in competition, that's all that is. Rafa usually gets it within 30 seconds, then spends the rest of the match passing to side control and finishing, or on the back and finishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge
Marcelo Garcia is adored by every grappler there is, and big time by Eddie Bravo and in the 10p world. He's the best no-gi grappler ever and is a great example. What does he do? From guard he arm drags, x-guard sweeps, or butterfly sweeps to the top or onto the back. When he's passing, it's almost always a knee slice, x-pass, or backstep half guard pass. If you look at his submissions over the past 10 years, it's guillotines, RNCs, and north south chokes, with a few armbars thrown in. So basically he has the same game as Rafa (sweep and pass, finish or or take the back, finish) but just uses different moves to do it. Rafa is all about berimbolos and dragon kisses from guard, from passing he leg drags, leg weaves, and long steps, and for submissions it's armbars, kimuras, RNCs, anaconda chokes, and some brabo chokes.
It might help if you understoofdwhere the berimbolo came from and why it's so popular. It's so popular because it jumps the jiu-jitsu positional hierarchy. Instead of sweeping, passing, and taking the back or mounting, you can go from guard directly to the back, while staying very safe in the process. During a berimbolo you aren't very vulnerable to many counter-attacks, and once you drop your opponents hips to the mat, even if you can't get onto their back you'll at keast get 2 points for a sweep if you can just come to your base. It's an advanced version of what Marcelo Garcia did in 2003 with his arm drags and X-guard. Marcelo went from the guard straight to the back and rear naked choked everyone. The berimbolo is just an evolution of the same idea.
I enjoy doing berimbolos. It's not a huge part of my game but I think it's fun to do. It's a very powerful position with a lot of cool variations, and a great offensive option from De la riva. The majority of double guard play you see where two people are actively pulling on each other's pants trying to do the bolo from the seated position is usually between Keenan Cornelius and Paulo Miyao or his brother, Joao Miyao. The strategy for Keenan doing this is simple. The Miyaos are so good at the De la Riva and berimbolo game that they are literally almost impossible to pass. So in competitions it's usually just easier to play double guard with them to not have your back taken, and hopefully you can come up at the very end to try for an advantage or maybe you can get the back with a berimbolo of your own. Silly, yes. It works though.
Is the berimbolo a practical position from a self defense POV? Not really. Do I think we'll see it in MMA? Yes. Magid Hage is already doing tornado guard and reverse De la Riva stuff in Bellator. They said deep half wouldn't cross over into MMA and it did. People are just smart enough to know that you can't camp out there. You have to go a sweep right away. The nature of the berimbolo makes it harder to do in no-gi because of the lack of a belt or inside-pants grip, but the Miyao bros, the Mendes bros, Caio Terra, Cobrinha, Braulio Estima, Geo from 10th Planet, and others are doing it.
The kiss of the dragon (reverse/inside berimbolo) inversion to the back from the reverse De la Riva/Spiral guard is much more common in no-gi instead of the berimbolo, and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that in MMA also.
Thank you for the feedback,
I still prefer the arm drags :P I do have a lot of studying to do on the berimbolo tho :)
It really comes down to one thing...has the technique been pressure tested. Any technique can be utilized in any scenario. However; this needs to be under stress to really learn the functionality of the technique. Basically, test the technique in a scenario based simulation and make adjustments from there.
Not trying to be argumentative but genuinely curious. Does pressure testing include MMA? I don't know if you're talking the berimbolo or not, but it's been pressure tested at the top levels of sport grappling and the results are that it works very well. It's proven to be a very good way to get onto the back or to sweep directly into a leg drag to side control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Marks
I like how 50/50 is starting to pop up in MMA. I've seen some cool heel hook finishes. I despise 50/50 in the gi. I think without the threat of heel hooks it's a horrible position.
As someone who plays lapel guard and worm guard I recognize it as a sport only move. Sport Jiu Jitsu is fun and inventive and that's why I like it. These guys now complaining just don't want to evolve and counter. Their argument is stupid because they use grips for everything and always have. If they want it real do MMA or back alley street fights and let us have are fun!
Not argumentative at all. Your wanting a clarification. Well, I meant in general, not so much a specific tech. I think many tech. are dismissed or labeled before they are fully explored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Nall
Also, I think it is based on the individuals goals as well as their limitations and natural attributes. What may work for you may not work for someone else and vice versa.
That's what I mean by pressure testing. The individual needs to test that for themselves as opposed accepting what may or may not work based on someone else outcome, whether good or bad.
Also, I totally agree with you on the 50/50 in gi...a stalemate with no threat = boring.
Keenan teaches a great armbar attack from 50/50 in a gi. Like most positions you have to put the time in to make them effective. People who try it a couple times then call it a stalling move sound like guys who try rubber a couple times then say it is easy to pass because they got passed using it with no experience and understanding. I like what my instructor said...if it works for you, use it!