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Havent had a chance to rep honey hole yet. In theory it looks like very familiar territory. Whenever that happens I wonder about blending the familiar positions. So what does everyone think? Could you knee knot from honey hole to make it even more secure?
I believe the saddle is the tightest version of this. When we heard of the honey hole and were speculating on what it was, we tested a configuration like the knee knot, the way the angles are set up from that configuration I remember there being more room to escape. Just my experience so far with it, curious to hear what others have found.
Yea, definitely easier to escape than the knee knot, but it's also good enough to help you fight for the heel hook if they're squirmy. Best just to go for the heel hook straight away, Texas clover leaf if they cross, or go Tony Montana if you want more control.
Scott Sonnon has a variation of the knee knot from saddle/honey hole he calls the "Gordian knot". He shows it on his Mastering the Saddle DVD, but I've not hit it in free rolling. The knot I learned from Chris on the other hand is there all the time if reaping is a legal option. You mileage may vary, but Scott's DVD is very worth picking up.
I've been asked alot about the honey hole/411/saddle. For those that understand the system of leg lock positioning I teach you will recognize it as one of the versions of the wedge position. There are both high side and low side attacks to each position (which hip the leg being attacked is on), also there are both inside and outside side variations of each position. So for those that know the wedge the saddle is the "High Outside Wedge" (the legs are in one of the wedge configurations, hip facing outside,attacking the leg on the top hip). Its allready a part of the system I teach and has been for years. Scott Yockel actually taught the 1/4 guard entry at the first east coast training camp 3 yrs ago.
As far as transitions go. Its of my opinion ( I have nearly 21 years invested in leg locks) the Knee Knot is the superior position of control especially when its on the high inside (facing inside with the leg on the top hip), when given the option I'd choose it over the saddle.
A typical transition to the saddle from the Knee Knot is when someone is able to escape and limp out the knotted leg and switch their attacked leg to the inside lowside for me this is the best utilization of the saddle, by then switching to the outside hip transitioning to high outside wedge (the saddle, honey hole,411), making their escape attempt another attack for me. Its always been a part of the system, most of ya haven't gotten that far. Only a handle of my best leg lockers know the entire system, just like the rubber guard system its immense and should be studied in its entirety. There is a huge blue print/ mind map with all the paths, focusing on one position/path is like only learning one path in rubber guard.
Totally agree, Coach. Additionally, the knee knot is an ultra high percentage dead zone where one can use minimal maintaining energy, while forcing the opponent to dig and expend energy at a high rate to escape.
Without a doubt, the knee knot is the Spider Web of leg attacks.
So much to learn
Seriously. And totally worth learning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Smith
It sure is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike May
Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself in different words, I just wanna make sure I understand. So the knee knot is the best control regardless of which hip their ankle is on? Did I understand that right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
So if I went to the honey hole to kind of surprise attack a guy defending the pass, it would be a good idea to grab the knee knot, right? My one leg is already behind the other knee so it should be pretty easy to knot up the free leg, I think. So even though the honey hole isn't the perfect leg lock scenario, does adding the knee knot to the mix improve control?
Nah, if you knot in the 4/11 they have q ton of room to free that leg. If you could lay on it, like in the standard knee knot it would be fine, but the fact that the legs are up in the air makes it way to easy for them to get out.
What I'm picturing is this
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/C3SA1Z4fNfQ/0.jpg
But with the opponent's foot on the other side. Would that be a position worth getting? Or is it better to just attack the heel hook right away without the knee knot control?
yeah I get it now. I feel like i"m missing a piece. So why is the knee knot from the wedge so much tighter than the knee knot from the honey hole? Is it the torque on the leg you're attacking?Quote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
Herzog probably has a much better answer for that than me, but I feel like its the a combo of the angle of the leg when its on high inside position, plus the fact that you are on top of the foot driving it to the floor in the standard knee knot. Its that lack of angle and pressure + the added space in the 4/11 that allows for the escape. Just what I have experienced with it.
Like he said, he has years in this. I have only been on the outside stuff for a couple years and the 4/11 for about 9 or so months.
-side note-
i think i remember eddie and dean discussing people tapping faster to the inverted/inside heel hook, something about the outside heel hook hurts less before it really does damage to the knee (compared to inside heel hook)
That's a good explanation thogh. I appreciate it. I tried it out today on a semi resistant partner to get a feel for it. I think you're spot on.
I'm guessing our hip rotation gives us a little more wiggle room in the outside heel hook. We don't have that same range of motion in the inverted heel hook. I think that's why we feel it quicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Toffolo
Yup, agreed. Thats why I switch back to wedge/ 411 when they turn their hips to the outside to avoid or escape the knot, like in my original post.Quote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
We just had Nathan Wallner come out to my gym and show us the Honey Hole last week. One of my wrestlers started playing with entries from standing and I really like the position too. Im definitely fresh when it comes to leg locks but this has been a great addition here. :) Cant wait to get all the reps in, and hopefully we can get a breakdown video of the position soon if its not already up here somewhere
I agree Mike. I bought it a few weeks ago and Sonnon does a good job of explaining how to control the position by controlling your opponents hips. Its always good to see Master Zogs input as well :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike May
I've been testing out different entries with the Honey Hole a lot lately, I love the position but after reading Zogs posts, I'm even more determined to make my leg lock game (along with every other aspect of my game) as tricky as possible. I tried out the scissors sweep from standing into the Honey Hole and then straight into that leg weave that Garry Tonon is using a lot. Is there a name for that leg weave position or has it been mentioned already in this thread? I tried to follow some of the position descriptions as best as I could but I need to get more familiar with leg locks.
I've got some super solid 4/11 entry stuff coming yalls way after Gracie worlds this weekend. If it pans out, of course.
Hell yeahQuote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
My favorite entry lately has been off of their DLR.
Thanks for the detailed explanation Chris, is this mind map something you actually have a copy of? Is it available anywhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog