Renzo Gracie Sets The Record Straight: ‘Sport Jiu-Jitsu & Street Jiu-Jitsu

With the current controversy in the Jiu-Jitsu community opposing fans of ‘street Jiu-Jitsu’ aimed at self defense/ MMA and ‘sport Jiu-Jitsu’ aimed at competition, the boss Renzo Gracie who is very poetic, sets the record straight.

Renzo has competed in sport Jiu-Jitsu, had his fare share of street fights, fought bare knuckled Vale Tudo fights and fought in modern MMA.

From his Twitter account:

“To try to separate Sport JiuJitsu from Street JiuJitsu is a sin… Like comparing the beauty of two women..Both are beautiful in different ways.. In the case of the Jiu-jitsu all you need is blood in your intentions…The sport becomes a magic tool in a street situation ;-)”

What more is there to say?

Love & Hespect Henzo

It's amazing how Renzo is always able to cut through all of the bullshit and set it straight. Awesome

"All you need is blood in your intentions."

Wow.

Street vs sport is the new gi vs no gi.

Im not sure what he is saying? We can butt scoot and go to spiral on the street as long as we feel violent while we do it? Or is he saying sport jits should have a more inclusive rule set that keeps it more like jits for self defense? Not getting it.

If you try to berimbolo on the street then you're an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Joe Firth

If you try to berimbolo on the street then you're an idiot.

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I agree, that and its prevalence in sport jits is why I used it as an example of a sport technique that won't work on the street simply because you "have blood in your intentions"

I dont understand what he meant.

I think that's what he's saying...that you'd have to be an idiot to do certain sport techniques on the street and that you just have to have that switch that goes to fight mode, not sport bjj mode. But, who am I to speak for Renzo haha

That make even less sense. No one has a switch that turns off the techniques they practice often and on the ones that they neglect. You dont have to be an idiot to use the wrong technique in s.d. You fight with the techniques you have committed to muscle memory, especially once things are going rough or you're dazed.

You may not start off by pulling guard but once it a real fight its very hard to avoid the techniques that you use often. Its hard to defend yourself in a calculating manner when you are in a fight. Why do you think the level of jits seems so much lower in mma?

I dont agree that people are trying to separate sport and self defense. I think they are simply observing a separation that already exist whether or not Renzo want to admit it.

It's not that hard. We know jiu-jitsu has a hierarchy of positions. Some positions are more important and dominant than others. We get this.

He is saying, violence in your intentions means you are out to dominate and destroy and defend your life.

If I, as a brown belt BJJer from an American Top Team school with a heavy focus on MMA jiu-jitsu (with throws/takedowns), FIND MYSELF ON MY BACK PLAYING even simple GUARD. I either was 1) ambused/surprised or 2) I am facing SOMEONE BETTER THAN ME. Otherwise, it's takedown, pass, mount, win.

Prime example. Ryan Hall's famous pizza parlor "brawl." The man who popularized the 50/50 position - the BANE of the Gracie Academy "real" BJJ self-defense congregation - did not jump 50/50 on the dude who got in his face. He double legged him, mounted, and that was it. He just sat there.

If we think Rafa or Gui Mendes are going to encounter their own "pizza parlor aggressor" by pulling a berimbolo, you're missing the major lesson of positional dominance. Berimbolo works for specific events against people who are your equal knowledge.

NOW, with that said, I personally believe that Rafa CAN berimbolo an aggressor if he wanted to and kill the son of a bitch in two seconds. But he's not dumb.

Maximum efficiency, minimum effort. Double, pass, mount, the end.

Thats makes ense. If you're out to dominate then you apt to use the types of techniques that are more applicable to self defense. I think thats what he meant thanks. I didn't think of the typical student at a gracie school having that mentality in a self defense situation.

Now how about once your onslaught has been repealed and you have to keep fighting, maybe you're dazed? Then you're possibly in the situation I described above.

Yeah Rafa could against some average guy but I dont see that really makes a point?

For me is about the fighter not the art. You just need to be intellegent. Would someone who does tae kwon do instantly go for a 720 wheel kick on the street? Or simply push kick an attacker away?

Or Muay Thai going for spinning elbows or back fists or would they just clinch?

Same with BJJ, would you go for a berimbolo OR would you practice your high percentage guard and anti striking, street applicable stuff.

The only debate here is the fighter and potentially what techniques you go to as second nature/fight or flight mode.


The debates been there when I did karate and the one punch, sport like nature that you see people practice now for competition.

So the some sport techniques are not ideal (across the board in any sport) - so don't use them - as a martial artist we should all recognise what to use in which situations.

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Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson

Now how about once your onslaught has been repealed and you have to keep fighting, maybe you're dazed? Then you're possibly in the situation I described above.

Yeah Rafa could against some average guy but I dont see that really makes a point?

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If your jiu-jitsu onslaught has been repelled, then you are facing A BETTER jiu-jitsuka or someone that trains MMA. We are getting so idiosyncratic now that no longer do generalizations apply. So I'll stick to me. Brown belt at an MMA-heavy jiu-jitsu school. If my onslaught in a self-defense situation is repelled, then I am FUCKED. That guy knows better jiu-jitsu or judo or takedown defense than me. The system has not lost its validity. I am just facing a better practitioner of the system. An immoral asshole at that who is using BJJ to assault/rob, but nonetheless, the jiu-jitsu is still sound.

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Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson

That make even less sense. No one has a switch that turns off the techniques they practice often and on the ones that they neglect. You dont have to be an idiot to use the wrong technique in s.d. You fight with the techniques you have committed to muscle memory, especially once things are going rough or you're dazed.

You may not start off by pulling guard but once it a real fight its very hard to avoid the techniques that you use often. Its hard to defend yourself in a calculating manner when you are in a fight. Why do you think the level of jits seems so much lower in mma?

I dont agree that people are trying to separate sport and self defense. I think they are simply observing a separation that already exist whether or not Renzo want to admit it.

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If you don't have a switch that goes off during a street fight, you are probably fucked regardless of what you train. I don't train kicking a guy in the balls everyday or fish hooking a guy while I punch him in the throat from back mount, but that doesn't mean I can't do it. I can. Training sport Jiu Jitsu does not make you an automaton in a street fight. You know the dominant positions. You know how to get there. If you are worth your sand as a sport Jiu Jitsu competitor, chances are you know more than spiral guard and the berimbolo and you know that moves like that are not blood in your intentions street fight moves in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Aiseop

If your jiu-jitsu onslaught has been repelled, then you are facing A BETTER jiu-jitsuka or someone that trains MMA. We are getting so idiosyncratic now that no longer do generalizations apply. So I'll stick to me. Brown belt at an MMA-heavy jiu-jitsu school. If my onslaught in a self-defense situation is repelled, then I am FUCKED. That guy knows better jiu-jitsu or judo or takedown defense than me. The system has not lost its validity. I am just facing a better practitioner of the system. An immoral asshole at that who is using BJJ to assault/rob, but nonetheless, the jiu-jitsu is still sound.

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A brown belt is not the typical skill level of a person using jits in self defense. I dont know how big you are but size could overcome skill. All that has to happen is one luck punch to take away your abilty to think well.

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Originally Posted by Joe Firth

For me is about the fighter not the art. You just need to be intellegent. Would someone who does tae kwon do instantly go for a 720 wheel kick on the street? Or simply push kick an attacker away?

Or Muay Thai going for spinning elbows or back fists or would they just clinch?

Same with BJJ, would you go for a berimbolo OR would you practice your high percentage guard and anti striking, street applicable stuff.

The only debate here is the fighter and potentially what techniques you go to as second nature/fight or flight mode.


The debates been there when I did karate and the one punch, sport like nature that you see people practice now for competition.

So the some sport techniques are not ideal (across the board in any sport) - so don't use them - as a martial artist we should all recognise what to use in which situations.

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I trained TKd for 5 years. I used to to defend myself. I did use a relatively simple kick. It happened without thought on my part. We trained the kick I used at least 10 times more than fancy aerial kicks and they are rarely used in competition. Compared that to a bjj'er that uses and trains something like spiral all the time.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

If you don't have a switch that goes off during a street fight, you are probably fucked regardless of what you train. I don't train kicking a guy in the balls everyday or fish hooking a guy while I punch him in the throat from back mount, but that doesn't mean I can't do it. I can. Training sport Jiu Jitsu does not make you an automaton in a street fight. You know the dominant positions. You know how to get there. If you are worth your sand as a sport Jiu Jitsu competitor, chances are you know more than spiral guard and the berimbolo and you know that moves like that are not blood in your intentions street fight moves in the first place.

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I'd have to guess that you have never defended yourself in a street fight or at least have never come back after losing ground. You cant think worth a shit when it going down.
You use the techniques that are in your muscle memory. if you observe the situation developing and know you may have to defend yourself and things go well then yes you can defend yourself in a cognitive manner but many times it is not a favorable situation like that.
Jits is better than no jits but for self defense, imo, training only or mostly techniques that are favorable in self defense is better than regularly training those that are not.

I have no idea what this thread is about anymore. Good luck, all.

Did the topic change? I think its about whether or not there is a difference between jits for self defense and jits for sport. Renzo says no diff just let aggression guide you and you will use the techniques that are street applicable even when you are in a real fight and maybe not doing well or dazed.

I doubt that from my personal experience defending myself and others. Sure sometimes I was able to plot and felt confident and was able to fight in a cognitive manner. Other times its like being in the turbulent ocean at night, but muscle memory saved me. You dont always feel confident and aggressive when defending yourself, even if it starts out that way.

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Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson

I'd have to guess that you have never defended yourself in a street fight or at least have never come back after losing ground. You cant think worth a shit when it going down.
You use the techniques that are in your muscle memory. if you observe the situation developing and know you may have to defend yourself and things go well then yes you can defend yourself in a cognitive manner but many times it is not a favorable situation like that.
Jits is better than no jits but for self defense, imo, training only or mostly techniques that are favorable in self defense is better than regularly training those that are not.

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I have defended myself and I have come back from some hard hits. I can concede that my mental faculties weren't at 100% but never once did my body tell me, gee it seems like a good idea to try lapel guard on dude's jacket or maybe I should try 50/50 here. Granted scrapping has been a part of my life since tangling with bullies at 4 or 5, but I don't think most men with higher functioning are going to be trying get hit in the face when their lives are possibly in jeopardy. Also, I don't see Ryron Gracie winning a street fight against Andre Galvao since you're making the argument that self defense Jiu Jitsu is supposedly better to train than sport Jiu Jitsu. To me it seems like the self defense Jiu Jitsu guys are basically selling me a vacuum cleaner because they can't hang with the best in the world. That is all. It is obvious that your mind is made up on this argument though and it also seems like you have me sized up too so I'll go back to discussing techniques on other threads and let this one go.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

I have defended myself and I have come back from some hard hits. I can concede that my mental faculties weren't at 100% but never once did my body tell me, gee it seems like a good idea to try lapel guard on dude's jacket or maybe I should try 50/50 here. Granted scrapping has been a part of my life since tangling with bullies at 4 or 5, but I don't think most men with higher functioning are going to be trying get hit in the face when their lives are possibly in jeopardy. Also, I don't see Ryron Gracie winning a street fight against Andre Galvao since you're making the argument that self defense Jiu Jitsu is supposedly better to train than sport Jiu Jitsu. To me it seems like the self defense Jiu Jitsu guys are basically selling me a vacuum cleaner because they can't hang with the best in the world. That is all. It is obvious that your mind is made up on this argument though and it also seems like you have me sized up too so I'll go back to discussing techniques on other threads and let this one go.

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Do you train lapel guard and 50/50 a lot? Not sure why you picked Ryron? Renzo would be more appropriate. Im not making the argument that self defense jits is better to train than sport. Never said that in any way. I dont train jits for self defense. Either way you are compare two people not two disciplines.
I agree that the debate is sometimes used buy people like the Rener and Ryron to bullshit people that their ideas are superior.
My argument would be;
1. there is a difference between the jits we often see in sport and the jits you would want to use to defend yourself.
2. that you will be better prepared to defend yourself using jits if you train predominantly techniques that are street applicable and have a game that is based on maintaining dominant positioning than if you train for sport and often pull guard and go inverted. Its not complicated, when you are in a fight, very often, you use the techniques that are in your muscle memory.

I have no problem believing that a guy that trains for sport and has a certain game may get caught or under serious pressure and will go to the techniques they most often train even if they are not the best for the situation.

You get beat alot by people who train hard and comfort yourself by saying its an unrealistic situation is all read.

Here are my thoughts after having skimmed through this thread.

Jiu Jitsu…regardless of sport, SD, gi, no-gi…whatever, is a thinking persons activity. We have all found ways to escape things that we have never drilled before, after our bread and butter stuff doesn’t work. We have all landed subs before that we have never drilled, because we saw an opportunity, or we were boxed in and took a hail Mary attempt at something. This is because we are thinking while this is all going on. I agree that we are best at what we practice, but in a street fight, once would never stick 100% to what has been drilled in class, because in class we are looking to make someone tap, not to permanently injure.

If I’m in a street fight…it is because someone has forced it to happen, and I don’t want to be there, I’m being attacked as I am trying to walk or run away, and my life in is danger. That being said, all bets are off…I’m looking to do permanent damage with a world or opportunities (read “no rules”). If I see a 2x4…he’s taking that shit to the dome…even though I’ve never drilled it before. If he is mounted on me and gets his face close to mine…I’m biting his nose off…or biting his cheek off…or his ear…or his throat…or grabbing a hand full of sack and twisting, or digging some fingers into eye sockets…all things that I have never drilled before. I’m not trying to make this fool tap, and I can escape the mount after this fool is damaged. Conceptual jiu jitsu…no plans on berimbolo, and I doubt I would try my bread and butter lockdown path unless it came right off of the nipple-bite setup or the eye-gouge from jaws of life. I’m looking to do harm…not make him tap.

Okay. I will be sucked in one more time. Yes I use 50/50 and more recently lapel guard. No I have never thought to use them in a fight. I choose Ryron because he is the self defense guru.. the champion of self defense Jiu Jitsu. I choose Galvao because he is an accomplished sport Jiu Jitsu champion. And I also choose those two because they showed down in Metamorris in a grappling match that Galvao mostly dominated and maintained positions that would be preferred in a fight. Renzo doesn't seem like a more appropriate example because he said "in the case of Jiu Jitsu all you need is blood in your intentions".....which in so many words makes him a proponent of both "styles" and doesn't think they should be separated.

I can agree that self defense Jiu Jitsu is easy. So easy that I have not forgotten the moves in all the techniques I have learned since. I know in a one on one fight to keep the distance, avoid strikes, close distance, clinch, takedown, cross knee pass, mount, punch, armbar/take back, choke. It is the Jiu Jitsu that works on people that don't know Jiu Jitsu and I am not going to forget it. Granted, I add more pepper than that when I am in a fight and I did oversimplify for time sake, but I don't think there are a lot of guys out there who train who don't know how to do this proficiently much past the blue maybe purple belt level if the gym is a little watered down on self defense. Maybe I am wrong though. I am from the midwest where the gyms are smaller and more time can be put into the students individually. Things may work different in California and guys who berimbolo may think that is all they need over there, but I think most rational individuals will not pull a tech that is stupid to use in a street fight regardless of how much they have trained it because people are not automatons. I don't train the clinch everyday, but I established a clinch a few weeks ago after months of neglecting it and back heel tripped my training partner. I have not worked at KFC for some time, but I bet I can still bread 64 pieces of chicken in under 3 minutes falling down drunk. I understand you are under duress in a fight and mistakes can be made and bad habits can be formed, but I believe good Jiu Jitsukas can handle themsleves. I don't completely disagree with you. You will be better prepared for a situation if you train for it, but put any good Jiu Jitsuka in a street fight and I am going to bet on him over an average brawler. That is my argument.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

You get beat alot by people who train hard and comfort yourself by saying its an unrealistic situation is all read.

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Huh?

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Originally Posted by Brian Tupper

Here are my thoughts after having skimmed through this thread.

Jiu Jitsu…regardless of sport, SD, gi, no-gi…whatever, is a thinking persons activity. We have all found ways to escape things that we have never drilled before, after our bread and butter stuff doesn’t work. We have all landed subs before that we have never drilled, because we saw an opportunity, or we were boxed in and took a hail Mary attempt at something. This is because we are thinking while this is all going on. I agree that we are best at what we practice, but in a street fight, once would never stick 100% to what has been drilled in class, because in class we are looking to make someone tap, not to permanently injure.

If I’m in a street fight…it is because someone has forced it to happen, and I don’t want to be there, I’m being attacked as I am trying to walk or run away, and my life in is danger. That being said, all bets are off…I’m looking to do permanent damage with a world or opportunities (read “no rules”). If I see a 2x4…he’s taking that shit to the dome…even though I’ve never drilled it before. If he is mounted on me and gets his face close to mine…I’m biting his nose off…or biting his cheek off…or his ear…or his throat…or grabbing a hand full of sack and twisting, or digging some fingers into eye sockets…all things that I have never drilled before. I’m not trying to make this fool tap, and I can escape the mount after this fool is damaged. Conceptual jiu jitsu…no plans on berimbolo, and I doubt I would try my bread and butter lockdown path unless it came right off of the nipple-bite setup or the eye-gouge from jaws of life. I’m looking to do harm…not make him tap.

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Sometimes it goes that way, sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

Okay. I will be sucked in one more time. Yes I use 50/50 and more recently lapel guard. No I have never thought to use them in a fight. I choose Ryron because he is the self defense guru.. the champion of self defense Jiu Jitsu. I choose Galvao because he is an accomplished sport Jiu Jitsu champion. And I also choose those two because they showed down in Metamorris in a grappling match that Galvao mostly dominated and maintained positions that would be preferred in a fight. Renzo doesn't seem like a more appropriate example because he said "in the case of Jiu Jitsu all you need is blood in your intentions".....which in so many words makes him a proponent of both "styles" and doesn't think they should be separated.

I can agree that self defense Jiu Jitsu is easy. So easy that I have not forgotten the moves in all the techniques I have learned since. I know in a one on one fight to keep the distance, avoid strikes, close distance, clinch, takedown, cross knee pass, mount, punch, armbar/take back, choke. It is the Jiu Jitsu that works on people that don't know Jiu Jitsu and I am not going to forget it. Granted, I add more pepper than that when I am in a fight and I did oversimplify for time sake, but I don't think there are a lot of guys out there who train who don't know how to do this proficiently much past the blue maybe purple belt level if the gym is a little watered down on self defense. Maybe I am wrong though. I am from the midwest where the gyms are smaller and more time can be put into the students individually. Things may work different in California and guys who berimbolo may think that is all they need over there, but I think most rational individuals will not pull a tech that is stupid to use in a street fight regardless of how much they have trained it because people are not automatons. I don't train the clinch everyday, but I established a clinch a few weeks ago after months of neglecting it and back heel tripped my training partner. I have not worked at KFC for some time, but I bet I can still bread 64 pieces of chicken in under 3 minutes falling down drunk. I understand you are under duress in a fight and mistakes can be made and bad habits can be formed, but I believe good Jiu Jitsukas can handle themsleves. I don't completely disagree with you. You will be better prepared for a situation if you train for it, but put any good Jiu Jitsuka in a street fight and I am going to bet on him over an average brawler. That is my argument.

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I never said jits for self defense was easy. Im not following why you are mentioning forgetting anything. Its not a matter of forgetting. Its also not a matter of smart or stupid or someone believing that berimbolo is all they need. These are strawman arguments which astounds me since I clearly stated my position. Maybe you aren't actually reading my posts?
I agree that a person trained in any jits is going to have an advantage over "an average brawler" if they are close in size and the average brawler is not significantly more experienced in real life confrontations but that was never the topic of this thread nor does it counter any position Ive taken. If thats your argument then I completely agree.
Not sure why people always assume that a person attacking them has no fighting experience or martial arts training. In my experience it is the opposite.

Oh yeah I forgot to say it makes a lot of sense why you chose Ryron and Galvao now that you explain it. I see that would be obvious to a lot of people.
I just never thought of Ryron as being confirmed as able to defend himself. He teaches martial arts for self defense supposedly, (I have no idea what he teaches) but Ive never heard of him defending himself in real life like I have Renzo for example also he never did mma so Im not sure he has ever used jits while being punched.
I think that the issue of self defense jits vs sport is real but is misused as an excuse for not winning in sport.

Some of this I think is being able to breathe and somehow keep your hear rate down during times of stress. When I was back in Afghanistan the last time, one of our guys blew his legs off about 30 ft from me. It was my job to go and clear up to him and make sure there wasn't any more IED's. So, I went and got him and pulled him back and called in the medevac to get the helicopter to come get him. Then led the medic out to get the guy out of there. He lived, but the other 3 times I had been in this situation where a guy blew up, they didn't live. I will say that this last one I was more calm than the prior times, and really didn't feel a whole lot of stress this time. But, I think the first time I did actually freeze for a few seconds just due to not ever having been in that situation. I only use this example cuz I've had this happen to me more than been in fights. I've only been in one street fight and I didn't know bjj then...hahaha. You have to think that when you know the basic self defense techniques, that will allow you to stay more calm in that stressful situation. I think that, in and of itself, will give the majority of us the upper hand. Unless, like aiseop said, the guy is more skilled than we are. Or even if it's a woman. Liz Carmouche armbarred the shit out of me last week hahaha.

You said it is not complicated, when you are in a fight you use the techniques in your muscle memory. I was transitioning thoughts from "it is not complicated" to self defense Jiu Jitsu is so simple that I haven't lost the technique from training other techniques. It was a play on words, but I typed so much I can understand if the wit was lost in reading it. Beyond that, I was just being cheeky.

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Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson

Huh?

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You know what I said you condescending, pretentious bastid.

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Originally Posted by damian jungermann

Some of this I think is being able to breathe and somehow keep your hear rate down during times of stress. When I was back in Afghanistan the last time, one of our guys blew his legs off about 30 ft from me. It was my job to go and clear up to him and make sure there wasn't any more IED's. So, I went and got him and pulled him back and called in the medevac to get the helicopter to come get him. Then led the medic out to get the guy out of there. He lived, but the other 3 times I had been in this situation where a guy blew up, they didn't live. I will say that this last one I was more calm than the prior times, and really didn't feel a whole lot of stress this time. But, I think the first time I did actually freeze for a few seconds just due to not ever having been in that situation. I only use this example cuz I've had this happen to me more than been in fights. I've only been in one street fight and I didn't know bjj then...hahaha. You have to think that when you know the basic self defense techniques, that will allow you to stay more calm in that stressful situation. I think that, in and of itself, will give the majority of us the upper hand. Unless, like aiseop said, the guy is more skilled than we are. Or even if it's a woman. Liz Carmouche armbarred the shit out of me last week hahaha.

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Damn powerful post. Thanks for sharing that. I see what your saying. Guess thats why its best to simulate situations that you are preparing for as closely as possible when training. Thats why I think, essentially the rules sets you train to compete under will have an impact on how effectively you are preparing yourself for self defense.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

You know what I said you condescending, pretentious bastid.

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I do get beat a lot by people who train hard, I get that part. Normally you're funnier when you're being a dick is all read.

the condescension is not intentional, pretentiousness maybe a little.