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Awesome match! You guys are warriors.
Damn that's a huge trophie. Old school type. I had one of those (not so tall) after a Tae Kwon Do tournament. Haven't seen one of those puppies in years.
Double guard pull flying friends adventure time was crazy
http://media.giphy.com/media/5wWf7H3...yxS8/giphy.gif
Hm. Got a new thing to try with my wife tonight. Thanks for the slo-mo gif.
Awesome battle. Highly entertaining.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
pure inspiration....awesome match
hahahaha! fuckQuote:
Originally Posted by Sean Marshall
A joy to watch. Tons to learn from.
I honestly think Denny pulled this to get Nathan to pull guard. It looked like he's practiced that Maneuver before. Either way it was an amazing match to watch!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Marshall
I would love to hear Denny's perspective but I doubt he wanted to be in Nathan's guard. His guard is sick, Denny is one of very few people to survive in it. Huge props to Denny for surviving and escaping.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
I wish Denny would have been a little more aggressive offensively, it almost looked like his strategy was to survive until OT where he knew he would be given a dominant position.
Huge respect to both guys, just my thoughts.
So damn mutha fuckin proud to have these 2 beasts on the ends of the lightweight bracket. They will have those spots as long as they can walk :-)
Dear sweet newborn jiu jitsu baby Jesus that was one of the SICKEST matches I've ever seen. Both you guy are baaad muthafuckas!!! RESPECT
Great to watch these two battle. Congrats to both of them on a great tournament.
Thank you Eddie :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
I say this with nothing but love and want EBI to succeed more than anything and just trying to be constructive
BUT
am not sure that final match really achieved what Eddie is trying to. As fans of BJJ etc yeah it was entertaining to us, but for the wider 'UFC audience' what was the total time on the ground maybe? 25% of that match.
I felt the same as I did after watching Saulo and Comprido in in M3, it needed more ground action.
I've heard Eddie say something along the lines of before some EBI matches 'ok no fucking around someone pull guard, don't want any of this handsies on the feet shit' and I hate to say it but that is what I felt like we got watching this.
If I want to watch BJJ I want to see 90% of the match on the ground not 25%, I know it's the final and it's only natural that people want to win etc, but if the purpose of EBI is to attract the mainstream it has to be submission heavy.
Please don't take this as me being disrespectful, I'm just trying to be honest and help EBI to succeed.
Would a rule if after 2 minutes it hasn't hit the ground there is a coin flip and someone takes top, someone bottom help? Just trying to brainstorm, anyone can say it needs to be fixed, but just trying to give an answer to the 'issue'.
Congrats to both Denny and Nathan for everything they have achieved and will achieve. Have nothing but respect for both of you, but being honest after watching that (besides the overtime) I felt a little 'blah'.
Much love.
I think the key is ref involvement. Eddie said there are stall cards, I believe, but these must actually get used. The ref should be very involved in pushing the pace of the match. The difference between wrestling and jits, for aggressive action vs positional play, is the difference of how involved the ref is in pushing the action with stall calls. In wrestling I've watched heated matches lost in the last 30 seconds because multiple stalls were called on an opponent trying to just stall/survive while ahead on points. You must always engage in wrestling, always be working to better your position. I realize there aren't points, but getting DQ'd is the penalty. Though admittedly it will be real hard for the ref to make that third (or whatever amount it is) stall call for the DQ and will always cause controversy on the matches it's called or not called. It's hard because there is a purposeful slow art to jits in some situations that is different than wrestling.
You could do something where if the match hasn't made it to the ground after x mins, a coin is flipped and one opponent is started in guard. But then do you not allow that opponent to stand? only stand during sweep attempt? There are a lot of randoms there that would be hard to control and I think it might feel awkward to stop the match and force someone to start in guard. Could be something that changes the pace though, a TV audience will lose attention after 2 mins max in the same position.
Ultimately Eddie wants to keep the ref out of it though. Introducing more active stall calls or forcing guard pulls will again bring in a controversial ref involvement. Eddie's idea for the solution without ref involvement is with prize money for subs. No sub, no money. Right now that incentive isn't in play, but that is the goal and the current plan to encourage constant action. With that sub money not on the table right now, we can't really see how it will affect action.
btw, not at all saying this because I didn't enjoy the match between denny and nathan. Just offering a response to the topic of stalling or purposely playing it safe that Tim brings up.
My Perspective.
The Truth is that I absolutely LOVE and RESPECT NATHAN ORCHARD to death and I DID NOT TRY TO TAP HIM in regulation. All I wanted was to WIN and NOT TAP HIM and that's what happened :) Denny why would you do that? It's a very complicated situation he is my team mate and I genuinely view him as a successor of mine. I inspired and helped make that beast and I just would have rather not publicly executed him. Some will understand others will not, I don't care I DID WHAT I THOUGHT WAS RIGHT and everyone is the family is SUPER TIGHT :)
I respect that. that was great match, you guys BOTH ARE AMAZING true thugs :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
Denny you are a beast on and off the mats. I have had the privilege to train with you and I always leave more impressed with your humility and your knowledge for the game at such a young age. This style of yours has been passed on to your students whom always welcome us from the outside and on to the ones who have opened their own schools like Alex. Thank you for what you do and you should never have to explain what you do to anyone as you live your values every day. Can't waiting to come train with you again.
Denny thank you for your respect and please understand that I also hold you in the highest regards. But I will be honest I am one of the people that does not really understand you when you say you didn't want to tap me. I would have been honored to be killed by you. As a warrior all I can hope for is an honorable death. Plus in OT you smashed on my face so hard you were definitely trying to tap me. I know you don't mean it this way but I feel slightly disrespected that you didn't try to tap me in regulation time. I feel slightly robbed of my honorable and glorious death or victory. I would rather get tapped out than lose by 17 seconds in overtime. I hope this doesn't come off as disrespectful because that is not my intention and I know you did what you thought was right. You are a hero to all of 10th Planet. I usually keep really quiet when it comes to politics and things like this but since you put your two cents out there I figured I would do the same. I'm only being honest. But again Denny, you are a warrior and a champion and thanks for everything you do for 10th Planet.Quote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan orchard
Thank you for the Respect and know that I also hold you in the highest regard. As a strategy I chose not to go for the sub in regulation wait it out till over time and there I did try to tap you and escape quicker, I figured it was the path of less resistance on all levels and it worked out how it wanted it to.
I love you Denny but you should have tapped him if you could have, and he should have tapped you if he could have.
Speaking from a "Customer's" viewpoint, they are paying to see BJJ matches that are intense, executed in a format that encourages going for the kill.
Tapping is just part of BJJ and imo there is no reason to avoid tapping someone out in competition just because you hold them in high regard. Paying customers could be very disappointed to read your post, and expect stalling to become common because we all have so much love for each other as 10P brothers and sisters.
Showcase your skills. Tap the opponent. (imo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurzy
I tried to tap him in overtime, That didn't happen and I won. I tapped 3/4 I'm happy :)
Thank you for the explanation Denny. As you said, others, including me, may not agree with your strategy but you did what YOU thought was right at the time which is all anyone can ask.
I really appreciate your honesty as I do Nathan's.
Onwards and upwards.
Great match! I'm sure you have your reasons Denny for not wanting to go for the kill in regulation round but honestly I don't understand that at all. Personally I'd much rather step off the mat knowing a straight war just happened but for you to say you were holding back takes away some of the magic.
Oh no. This new info takes the rose off its bloom. Damn. Probably should have been kept confidential. Now IBJJF people can claim that sub-only comps can be "manufactured and managed." And it makes legit the thing we all hate with the CLOSE-OUTS by teams in championships.
I Disagree we both tried to win. He tried to win with offense I just tried to win using defense and that was the winning strategy. The goal is not to beat one person but choose the right strategy that wins the whole event and that was the right one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Denny devised and executed the best strategy and won the fight, pure and simple. Until you've become a multiple world champion competing at the highest levels, I believe that your current opinion on the matter lacks any merit in terms of what is a "part of BJJ". IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurzy
Can't fault the competitor, they are there to win. They will always pursue the strategy they believe they can win with.Quote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
The goal of EBI however, is to make sure there is no defensive/non-exciting strategy that can lead to winning. You've shown that's not the case with the current structure of EBI. But if it wasn't you, it would've been someone else. It's EBI's job to set the format, the competitor will always simply want to win.
Someone could even have gone further than denny's strategy and have played defensive in the finals as well. If you truly only care about winning, focusing your time on securing and maintaining the position would've been a better strategy than trying for a tap. Trying for the tap just risks losing the position. When Orchard decided to go for armbar start, he immediately tried to take it to his reverse spider web position. He lost the hold and by immediately going for the tap with that risky attempt, he probably lost those 17 seconds and the match.
So time to tweak the model? What can be changed to takeaway the defensive/non-exciting strategy?
Increased ref involvement with stall calls?
Money? Money might change it, but we won't know until we have it and it's kind of a chicken and the egg problem. You need the money to make it exciting and you need it to be exciting to get the money.
Keep fostering a community of fans that call for going for the submission, that reward those who do? If it's clear the community around EBI aren't going to enjoy you doing anything other than play aggressive, than hopefully that continues to have an affect on competitors decisions to play to the crowd and aim for submissions above strategy.
If it's clear playing defensive will have a bad backlash from the community, won't win any money for subs, and might lose you the match anyway for stall cals, then hopefully that's enough.
There's probably no easy answer or perfect solution, just gotta keep playing with it. It still seems to be better than most though. GEO secured taps in all four of his matches. Denny got submissions in 3/4 and I believe Nathan was 3/4 too? That's a lot of submissions for high level competitors, a better ratio than most/any current tournaments. And at worst, when faced with an opponent using a defensive strategy, at least we get an overtime format that forces action rather than one that forces the match to be called based off wrestling takedowns. So we're still doing well. Just might be able to do better too.
^^^ Agree
Again only brainstorming with the utmost respect for my peers and speaking as a spectator wanting to see BJJ on the ground.
The competitor 'stalling' gets put in back control or spiderweb? More of a deterrent than a warning and gets the match to the ground?
If they escape and choose to get back to their feet and don't re-engage immediately on the ground (sitting or looking to pass their sitting opponent) back into back control or spiderweb they go.
In the example in this final, it would have happened the second time Denny chose to stand and disengaged IMO.
Oh wow. Disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
Lots of it.
Damn.
Well, I think the more simple solution to this is to simply ask each competitor before the competition if there is anyone else in the tournament that they aren't willing to give 100% against and if they say "yes", then send them home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Bruhn
Respect to all, but as a Bjj spectator the stand up was... Not entertaining.
Question: if we're looking for exciting matches and subs why not start on the ground like regular rolling?
Too complicated and too much of a negative from just one call IMO. Remember calling stalling will be a semi controversial call. It will be a call that is up to judges discretion. That much negative coming from one judgement call is too much. I think it should be 3 stalling calls and then DQ. It gives a little period of time where the competitor can react and adjust his action. It also gives the ref some room to call a couple while not interfering with the match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Bruhn
No. Denny is arguing he gave 100%, sort of.. His strategy just was defensive. Competitors interested in playing a defensive strategy to win are not going to be weeded out by this. EBI's format has to weed out defensive strategies as a good option to choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Gore
Because standup can be fun to watch. It just needs to be aggressive. It's also an important part of the sport. You can't just takeaway standup. If you were to start one opponent in guard and one on top, then what? Do you not allow the opponent in guard to stand? Do you not allow the other opponent to play guard? You have to let the match be fluid and let opponents switch between standing and guard play as they attack. The format just needs to encourage aggressive play at each position.Quote:
Originally Posted by brianspinaltap
I hope that's what he meant, but it sure didn't sound like what he meant. He said he didn't want to tap him because they were friends. He wanted to win, but he wanted to win in a specific way that he considered to be a nicer way to beat your friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Eddy
True, they could just stand up again…Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Eddy
anyway, at least this one didn't end up in foot locks… :cool:
Respect to all involved for the performance and honesty.
Denny did try to tap me in ot just not in the regulation round. But he definitely tried to tap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Gore