Should wrestling really be considered no gi experience?

Wanting to get some other grappler's opinions. I'm 20, I've been training jiu jitsu for about a year and a half now, and I wrestled 4 years in high school. About 3 months after training I started competing, When I went to register at my first NAGA there were of course the 4 divisions (novice 0-6 months, beginner 6 months-2 years, int 2-5 years, expert 5+ years). I had only been training around 3 months at the time so I decided to go beginner. When I was asked about wrestling experience I told the guy I wrestled 4 years in High School and told me I had to compete at int or I would really be sandbagging (because apparently wrestling experience is just as valuable as jiu jitsu experience?) . I agreed and ended up winning the first match on points just clinging on to the guy in top half guard, then got tapped in about 30 seconds in my second match. I was a little upset that I was forced to compete with guys that had been doing jiu jitsu for so much longer than me. Looking back now I'm happy I competed at intermediate from the beginning because it's gotten me used to that intermediate level competition speed, and I'll be competing there for another couple years or so.
But what really bothers me is how wrestling is valued by so many different grappling competitions, yeah, it's a great base for learning jiu jitsu, no, 4 years of wrestling is not equal to 4 years of jiu jitsu. You've probably all had wrestlers come into your gym and get tapped by everyone. Obviously the only aspect it helps are takedowns, but with guard pulling as common as it is, a takedown isn't a big weapon (especially when points aren't taken for pulling guard). I think the advantage wrestling has is it helps with the learning curve. There's not much technique crossover to speak of, wrestling and jiu jitsu are 2 different animals. How do you guys think it should be handled?

My opinion is yes - you should be in intimidate. Especially in NAGA, which is the North American Grappling Association (not a BJJ comp).

Although you personally may not be the best wrestler after 4 years, some wrestlers with 4 years experience would handle themselves well against a blue/purple belt and DESTROY a white belt.

Obviously the ideal situation would be for NAGA to have a team of people who can look at each fighter and assign them a category, but it just isn't feasible.

If it was a standup sport: let us say a kickboxer - who had been training 3 months - was matched up with a guy who had been training for 3 months in kickboxing (but, by the way, he has had 4 years boxing experience) the coach would never take that fight.

It is frustrating, I know, but I'd say stick to the rules. If you won even a single match in NAGA then you are doing well… it is one of the most competitive competition.

I think it's mainly about the actual competition experience. As a wrestler, you might not be technically sound like the jiu jitsu guys, but you've been in the heat of battle enough times to know how to navigate the mental hysteria and adrenaline.

But technically speaking, no, I don't think wrestlers deserve to have to face higher ranked guys. In fact, I feel it actually might be beneficial for white belts to have to face wrestlers. It's a huge wake up call to be introduced to the force and intensity wrestlers bring to the table. It's also good because it puts an emphasis on learning and defending takedowns, which are essential for the self defense aspect of jiu jitsu.

"There's nothing sadder than a ground specialist who can't take the fight to the ground."

In my opinion, wrestling should be considered as nogi experience because although not many techniques cross over there are many things that you would have picker up that relate. Some examples being how to base out correctly or how to use your weight effectively. I find that wrestlers know how to minimize their opponents movements.

Absolutely without a doubt wrestling experience should and does count.

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Originally Posted by Ross Davidson

I think it's mainly about the actual competition experience. As a wrestler, you might not be technically sound like the jiu jitsu guys, but you've been in the heat of battle enough times to know how to navigate the mental hysteria and adrenaline.

But technically speaking, no, I don't think wrestlers deserve to have to face higher ranked guys. In fact, I feel it actually might be beneficial for white belts to have to face wrestlers. It's a huge wake up call to be introduced to the force and intensity wrestlers bring to the table. It's also good because it puts an emphasis on learning and defending takedowns, which are essential for the self defense aspect of jiu jitsu.

"There's nothing sadder than a ground specialist who can't take the fight to the ground."

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I disagree on most points, but one thing to consider is that NAGA is not IBJJF - i.e. it is a 'grappling' competition and not a 'jiujitsu' competition. Therefore, you could argue that a guy who has 4 years of Jiujitsu experience has less of an advantage than a guy who has been wrestling a couple years (as it is no-gi). Not saying you'd be right, just that we shouldn't look at things with tinted glasses.

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Absolutely without a doubt wrestling experience should and does count.

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As per usual Chris H walks in and delivers logic & the fact of the matter in a single sentence :)

I believe the fundamentals and skills you learn in either grappling art makes you a better grappler. What I mean is they both have the same fundamental skills, yet they are applied a lot differently. Wrestlers usually develop insane grappling skills, yet they apply them the way they know how: wrestling. They can grind you out, but usually they make fundamental Jiu-Jitsu mistakes when they go 100% wrestler mode, but the ones who adapt to Jiu-Jitsu are devastating. Their is two types of wrestlers, the ones who revert back to wrestling and the ones who adapt to Jiu-Jitsu. Wrestling gives you a great advantage when you adapt the skills to Jiu-Jitsu, but I would call it an edge rather than an advantage if it makes you do wrestler habits that aren't as suitable for jiu-jitsu (example: A lot of wrestlers love to dive into a guard and pressure rather than posture inside a guard, which sometimes goes well, but a triangle wizard will make you pay big.) Many times you can see matches where a wrestler is a much better grappler, but he's in the Jiu-Jitsu guy's element being in a submission match and that alone makes up the experience factor. The opposite, a shutdown, can be seen a lot as well.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Absolutely without a doubt wrestling experience should and does count.

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Wisdom speaking...
So true !!!


Also the first time you fight with a wrestler. It´s a totally different experience, and not everyone knows how to manage it. Worse if you are a bjj beginner on your first steps competing could become quite frustrating.

Im my case i fought a guy an olympic gold medalist wrestler (which I did´t knew about it )
Damn you feel like a train just pass over you. When they start a takedown so fast as the 1 seg of your fight. I thought "what in the world its happening?". At the end he won for 3 point (i was a white belt 6 months trainning) ang also a Girl, They guy told my coach and the other guys you have a damn strong gir (couldn´t understand why he said that, almost like giving and oppinion to my coach "evaluating me "). But i kept asking myself what just have happened?.
At the end my coach told me who the guy was and I was like how in the world the let me fight against him ? O_O
But as a beginner you don't know anything and I just put my head down and went home disappointed.

So for me wrestling should count!! and its better to learn the basics of wrestling and how to use your jiujitsu against them and else.
I think a white belt without those bases should never face an experienced wrestler. Is not fair and the worst scenario you can end up injured.

We have a white belt at our gym with over 20 yrs wrestling experience and granted his BJJ isn't solid he competed last year in expert and won gold submitting a black and purple belt and points on another black. Basic submissions arm triangle and wedlock due to amazing take down and side control from his wrestling experience. So yes it should count.

I never got to compete in a beginner division due to my wrestling experience. I have taken my fair share of losses, but that's part of the journey.

Like I said, I'm glad I've always been competing at intermediate now, the first few tournaments were a little rocky, but now my submission game is as strong as my wrestling. I see the point about being used to competition and everything but I feel like there's a difference between being a lifelong wrestling stud with collegiate experience and a high school level wrestler. Just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by hespectnogi

Obviously the only aspect it helps are takedowns, but with guard pulling as common as it is, a takedown isn't a big weapon (especially when points aren't taken for pulling guard).

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I disagree. Wrestlers, more often than not, have excellent base, which makes them difficult to sweep, they have solid control from the top, making escapes and reversals difficult, and if they're not clueless, they can play a very good stall game which makes attacks from the guard, in general, difficult (so, they score a takedown and stall in guard for the win).

Is wrestling experience the same as jits experience? No. I agree with you on that. However, I think it does make a difference. The fact that you won your first match shows that you probably were in the right division.

I feel wrestlers kinda float in the middle, b/c their bodies are used to the balance and they do have a sense of control, but at the same time don't know any technical routes for submissions and passes, I think it really depends on how butt hurt your opponent is about it, but regardless I think they should be considered not complete beginner but not really fair for intermediate either more like between a good white belt and a blue belt imo

I can only speak from the perspective of watching my kids do Judo/BJJ pre wrestling, and post wrestling. My daughter didn't stand a chance against this other young girl in her class who would tap her effortlessly. Then she spent 9 months wrestling Folkstyle, Freestyle and Greco-Roman, taking a break from Judo and BJJ. When we went back to that same club she faced the same girl and did get thrown but manhandled the girl on the ground and tapped her with a Rear Naked choke in a stunning amount of time. It certainly makes a difference.

Grappling is grappling. While it may not give you a direct knowledge of nogi bjj it gives you a basic knowledge of grappling and how the body moves. As well as better wrestling skills that can come in handy not just takedowns but how to ride somebody in side-mount, mount, rear mount etc . . .

I wrestled in high school(shitty Canadian high school wrestling, not quite the same caliber as in the states) and counted it towards my experience level for tournaments. The wrestling definitely helped me pick-up stuff and learn faster than others. And I took fifteen years off between my high school wrestling to the time I started bjj.

Wrestling is a style of grappling. However, this discussion of whether or not it 'counts' reveals the problems with the entire winning-oriented mindset that currently afflicts our sport. Who should you compete against? People who will give you good matches that will help you both improve your skills and competition comfort level. The number of years that you've been doing anything, jiujitsu or wrestling, is irrelevant. Geo could, if he followed the letter of the rules, still compete at intermediate since he has less than 4 years of training, but what would be the point?

In my opinion, we as a community need to remember to approach BJJ as a martial art; it is a path towards a greater self. Medals are just hunks of metal, and belts are just dyed cloth. Neither contains intrinsic value; they exist only as symbols of things that do. The journey, the self-discovery, the mental and physical strength, the camaraderie, the overcoming of personal demons... these are real things with real value that you will gain from this 'sport'. Train hard and push yourself for yourself. Competing to your utmost effort is a gift both to yourself and to your opponent, with whom you share so much common ground by very definition. You will become better, stronger, faster, and you will know yourself more fully even as you continue to grow and change.

Yes.

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Originally Posted by Amir Allam

Wrestling is a style of grappling. However, this discussion of whether or not it 'counts' reveals the problems with the entire winning-oriented mindset that currently afflicts our sport. Who should you compete against? People who will give you good matches that will help you both improve your skills and competition comfort level. The number of years that you've been doing anything, jiujitsu or wrestling, is irrelevant. Geo could, if he followed the letter of the rules, still compete at intermediate since he has less than 4 years of training, but what would be the point?

In my opinion, we as a community need to remember to approach BJJ as a martial art; it is a path towards a greater self. Medals are just hunks of metal, and belts are just dyed cloth. Neither contains intrinsic value; they exist only as symbols of things that do. The journey, the self-discovery, the mental and physical strength, the camaraderie, the overcoming of personal demons... these are real things with real value that you will gain from this 'sport'. Train hard and push yourself for yourself. Competing to your utmost effort is a gift both to yourself and to your opponent, with whom you share so much common ground by very definition. You will become better, stronger, faster, and you will know yourself more fully even as you continue to grow and change.

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Very well said brother. We are on the same page with this one. Ever since Cora started competing a little over 2 yrs ago, she only did 1 tournament as intermediate, every one since then has always been at expert or advanced. Why? Because she is trained to fight the best. We traveled all over TX and to CA just to find the best kids to compete with. But really she is competing against herself. She has fought all the tough kids in TX so now we looking to go other places we havent been before. Its never about the medals or belts, have plenty of those collecting dust. We just looking for a tough hard fight. So stay tune, she might pop up in your neck of the woods....:)

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Originally Posted by Amir Allam

Wrestling is a style of grappling. However, this discussion of whether or not it 'counts' reveals the problems with the entire winning-oriented mindset that currently afflicts our sport. Who should you compete against? People who will give you good matches that will help you both improve your skills and competition comfort level. The number of years that you've been doing anything, jiujitsu or wrestling, is irrelevant. Geo could, if he followed the letter of the rules, still compete at intermediate since he has less than 4 years of training, but what would be the point?

In my opinion, we as a community need to remember to approach BJJ as a martial art; it is a path towards a greater self. Medals are just hunks of metal, and belts are just dyed cloth. Neither contains intrinsic value; they exist only as symbols of things that do. The journey, the self-discovery, the mental and physical strength, the camaraderie, the overcoming of personal demons... these are real things with real value that you will gain from this 'sport'. Train hard and push yourself for yourself. Competing to your utmost effort is a gift both to yourself and to your opponent, with whom you share so much common ground by very definition. You will become better, stronger, faster, and you will know yourself more fully even as you continue to grow and change.

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I'll be honest, that was some deep and articulate shit, thanks for the motivation brotha

I agree and disagree. Your inexperience in jiu jitsu makes it feel unfair, but I swear from competing against experienced wrestlers that you guys are way tougher to handle than you probably think you are. For the first few comps it may seem ufaair, but you're going to improve drastically in a short amount of time.

I think there are a few reasons why your experience is worth a lot. mentally you're probably much tougher than your average guy, and you probably have more experience competing. Wrestlers are hard as fuck to sweep, and you guys have ridiculous base, pressure, and don't concede sweeps easily. I don't think takedowns are all that translates. i think the mental toughness translates, and I think your ability to attack front headlocks, leg rides, whizzers, underhooks, gable grips, are all big advantages. Certainly novice is too small. At least beginner. I don't really believe in sand bagging, so that's a whole other discussion, but we have a guy that wrestled 4 years in high school that just came to our gym and he could definitely compete at the blue belt level, simply because of his top game.

Remember, no-gi isn't technically BJJ. You're doing submission wrestling, and things that you might have experience with in wrestling are going to help you a lot. I think that fact is key. If you were in the gi you'd be in the white belt division, but since you're no-gi, they want to consider all disciplines. Sambo, BJJ, wrestling, all factor into the experience level. You're basically doing MGA (mixed grappling arts) when you do no-gi.

I think there's a lot of crossover in technique that you just may have no seen yet. As a wrestler you're already geared to have a nasty darce/guillotine and front headlock attack game. You'll probably have a nasty truck game. You'll probably have a nasty leg drag and back attack game. Once you see some techniques I bet they'll start to gel and make way more sense to you faster than most people.

Most people with 3 months of training could not even win a match in the intermediate division at all. The fact that you were able to takedown and control from the top for long enough to win says a lot.

You're going to be super happy about it when you grow and learn way more than anyone else that's starting at the same time as you. Just hang in there man.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

I agree and disagree. Your inexperience in jiu jitsu makes it feel unfair, but I swear from competing against experienced wrestlers that you guys are way tougher to handle than you probably think you are. For the first few comps it may seem ufaair, but you're going to improve drastically in a short amount of time.

I think there are a few reasons why your experience is worth a lot. mentally you're probably much tougher than your average guy, and you probably have more experience competing. Wrestlers are hard as fuck to sweep, and you guys have ridiculous base, pressure, and don't concede sweeps easily. I don't think takedowns are all that translates. i think the mental toughness translates, and I think your ability to attack front headlocks, leg rides, whizzers, underhooks, gable grips, are all big advantages. Certainly novice is too small. At least beginner. I don't really believe in sand bagging, so that's a whole other discussion, but we have a guy that wrestled 4 years in high school that just came to our gym and he could definitely compete at the blue belt level, simply because of his top game.

Remember, no-gi isn't technically BJJ. You're doing submission wrestling, and things that you might have experience with in wrestling are going to help you a lot. I think that fact is key. If you were in the gi you'd be in the white belt division, but since you're no-gi, they want to consider all disciplines. Sambo, BJJ, wrestling, all factor into the experience level. You're basically doing MGA (mixed grappling arts) when you do no-gi.

I think there's a lot of crossover in technique that you just may have no seen yet. As a wrestler you're already geared to have a nasty darce/guillotine and front headlock attack game. You'll probably have a nasty truck game. You'll probably have a nasty leg drag and back attack game. Once you see some techniques I bet they'll start to gel and make way more sense to you faster than most people.

Most people with 3 months of training could not even win a match in the intermediate division at all. The fact that you were able to takedown and control from the top for long enough to win says a lot.

You're going to be super happy about it when you grow and learn way more than anyone else that's starting at the same time as you. Just hang in there man.

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I totally agree with this. In the last year and a half I'm super happy with how fast I've progressed, and you basically described my game lol. Again, I'm happy I started out intermediate and not beginner. I've also gotten obsessed with lockdown and I consider that one of the strongest parts of my game. I definitely feel like the 10th planet system has made me a more we'll rounded grappler

There is weird connection with wrestling=no technique. This couldn't be further from the truth. Wrestling like Jiu Jitsu is made up of individuals, each having their own strengths and weaknesses and strategies. There are specialist, just like in Jiu Jitsu. Not all Wrestling is the same, just like not all Jiu Jitsu is the same. Some guys are way better mat wrestlers, than they are at shooting. Some prefer take down from a clinch. Some are better at leg ridding, or turn overs. You can't all lump it into one category as say it can only help with takedowns, that's just ignorant. Being in the appropriate division based on time training any grappling art, including Wrestling, Judo and Sambo, etc. its because they are all relevant.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

There is weird connection with wrestling=no technique. This couldn't be further from the truth. Wrestling like Jiu Jitsu is made up of individuals, each having their own strengths and weaknesses and strategies. There are specialist, just like in Jiu Jitsu. Not all Wrestling is the same, just like not all Jiu Jitsu is the same. Some guys are way better mat wrestlers, than they are at shooting. Some prefer take down from a clinch. Some are better at leg ridding, or turn overs. You can't all lump it into one category as say it can only help with takedowns, that's just ignorant. Being in the appropriate division based on time training any grappling art, including Wrestling, Judo and Sambo, etc. its because they are all relevant.

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Totally. I've always found it very weird that everyone acknowledges that wrestling is very technical. But when people talk about wrestling in gi or no-gi jiu jitsu all of a sudden people talk about it being less technical and "attribute based" or "just athleticism". No one does this when they talk about wrestling in the Olmypics or even wrestling in MMA. But for some reason when it comes to jiu jitsu many of the straight jiu jitsu folks wanna hate on wrestling.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

Totally. I've always found it very weird that everyone acknowledges that wrestling is very technical. But when people talk about wrestling in gi or no-gi jiu jitsu all of a sudden people talk about it being less technical and "attribute based" or "just athleticism". No one does this when they talk about wrestling in the Olmypics or even wrestling in MMA. But for some reason when it comes to jiu jitsu many of the straight jiu jitsu folks wanna hate on wrestling.

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Wrestling is steadily taking over MMA. There is only one champion left (Other then Rousey) who is BJJ based, Aldo. And he rarely goes to the ground anymore. Some of the best BJJ MMA fighters like BJ Penn, have been unable to adjust to the wrestling revolution. This sort of thing tends to breed resentment. Particularly to the crowd that thought that if they became BJJ black belts they were going to be invincible.

Wrestlers fight hard and are very intense. They are freakishly strong. They are generally aggressive. People who only do BJJ can be intimidated and put off by them. But there is absolutely technique involved. I see it up close when my daughter who is considerably physically weaker then the boys she faces still prevails with good technique. Her mentor is a skinny waif of a girl who will double leg you if you blink, and will have you turned before you have time to know what just hit you.

And now we have the resurgence of Catch Wrestling. You see how quickly the Gracie Breakdown had to run damage control when Josh Barnett won the championship. Or the enigma of people like Kazushi Sakuraba.

Wrestlers are a threat to BJJ's dominance in the grappling world. The only thing holding them back was the fact that Catch Wrestling stopped being practiced actively after it ceased to be an Olympic Sport. That's changing now.

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Originally Posted by Neil Kiernan

Wrestling is steadily taking over MMA. There is only one champion left (Other then Rousey) who is BJJ based, Aldo. And he rarely goes to the ground anymore. Some of the best BJJ MMA fighters like BJ Penn, have been unable to adjust to the wrestling revolution. This sort of thing tends to breed resentment. Particularly to the crowd that thought that if they became BJJ black belts they were going to be invincible.

Wrestlers fight hard and are very intense. They are freakishly strong. They are generally aggressive. People who only do BJJ can be intimidated and put off by them. But there is absolutely technique involved. I see it up close when my daughter who is considerably physically weaker then the boys she faces still prevails with good technique. Her mentor is a skinny waif of a girl who will double leg you if you blink, and will have you turned before you have time to know what just hit you.

And now we have the resurgence of Catch Wrestling. You see how quickly the Gracie Breakdown had to run damage control when Josh Barnett won the championship. Or the enigma of people like Kazushi Sakuraba.

Wrestlers are a threat to BJJ's dominance in the grappling world. The only thing holding them back was the fact that Catch Wrestling stopped being practiced actively after it ceased to be an Olympic Sport. That's changing now.

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I agree with you on a lot here. Wrestling gives you great balance, helps with top control, generally makes your posture better. But I don't think that wrestling is really what's taking over. It's the combination of wrestling and jiu jitsu. If you don't have both now adays it would be difficult to be competitive at the top of any division (I mean just adding wrestling to your training, you don't have to come from a wrestling background). Just to be clear I do think that wrestling should be factored into experience, but it's not quite as valuable as jiu jitsu for submission grappling is, year for year. And nobody mentions how wrestling is generally 3-4 months out of the year. As for the pure jiu jitsu guys view of wrestlers, I think that's pretty accurate. People fear whatever they're not familiar with, but the same goes for wrestler's view of jiu jitsu guys, "these guys who will tangle you up and choke your lights out once you get to the ground". When I first started training, it was the guard players that really scared me, even though they may have been intimidated by my wrestling.

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Originally Posted by hespectnogi

I agree with you on a lot here. Wrestling gives you great balance, helps with top control, generally makes your posture better. But I don't think that wrestling is really what's taking over. It's the combination of wrestling and jiu jitsu. If you don't have both now adays it would be difficult to be competitive at the top of any division (I mean just adding wrestling to your training, you don't have to come from a wrestling background). Just to be clear I do think that wrestling should be factored into experience, but it's not quite as valuable as jiu jitsu for submission grappling is, year for year. And nobody mentions how wrestling is generally 3-4 months out of the year. As for the pure jiu jitsu guys view of wrestlers, I think that's pretty accurate. People fear whatever they're not familiar with, but the same goes for wrestler's view of jiu jitsu guys, "these guys who will tangle you up and choke your lights out once you get to the ground". When I first started training, it was the guard players that really scared me, even though they may have been intimidated by my wrestling.

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I watch far too much MMA. (This is both a good and a bad thing.) I agree with a lot of your points as well. The problem I am seeing is that there was a time when BJJ Black Belts were an "I-win" button to people who didn't have them. Then you get guys like Chael Sonnen, and Randy Couture, neither of which have ANY rank in BJJ and just learned passable submission defense and destroy people under them all the time. Don't misunderstand in that I am not saying that BJJ will ever be irrelevant. But the "Just do BJJ and Muay Thai...." style a lot of people trained for doesn't work anymore. You see it on TUF all the time when these guys come in with BJJ Black Belts and even have good expirience in world class grappling matches losing to guys with good wrestling and only passable BJJ.

Catch Wrestling poses even more of a problem as it literally just plugs submissions back into Folkstyle Wrestling. I talked to a Catch coach who took a guy who just wrestled varsity for high school and he was able to teach him enough Catch to start taking first in BJJ tournaments within a few months, because the foundation for everything in Catch is sitting there in Folkstyle.

Then there is also the psychology. And work ethic. It's off the charts. Rousey's mother has a pretty good blog post about it you should check out. Judo is also dealing with the "Wrestling problem" and their solution was to simply remove leg attacks from the rules in Judo. But she pointed out that wrestling practice is generally so much more intense and athletic then anything most martial arts schools do. My kids just did a practice with a highly regarded club here in Michigan and they do this thing called "The Grind" where you free wrestle hard as you can for a period then jog laps, then free wrestle again hard as you can, then run laps, do this and repeat over and over and over. It was insane but it made the kids so tough.

Watch this documentary sometime. Anyone of any background can appreciate it, but it will give you a glimpse into what makes a world class wrestler. They are cut from a different cloth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QdcHrPotm4

We had this conversation in another thread with a lot of great replies.

http://www.10thplanetjj.com/threads/...xplanation-why

This is that article from Rousey's mother I was talking about.

http://drannmaria.blogspot.com/2011/...lers-dont.html