"Firas Zahabi talks development of MMA, finds jiu-jitsu's lack of evolution 'discouraging'" What??? Why don't these guys pay attention to 10P?
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/11/3...jitsus-lack-of
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"Firas Zahabi talks development of MMA, finds jiu-jitsu's lack of evolution 'discouraging'" What??? Why don't these guys pay attention to 10P?
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/11/3...jitsus-lack-of
It would be interesting to see a grappling-only sport that is strictly oriented towards creating the best possible grapplers for MMA. It'd have to have points because you need a way to reward things that aren't useful when your only goal is to submit your opponent but would be useful of you could strike him. Standing up after being taken down needs to be worth something. Not as much as a sweep, but it needs to be worth something or people won't learn to do it. With no points and grappling only it's counterproductive for most people to go from having their opponent in their guard to standing. But in MMA for almost everyone it's better to get back up if you can. And even if you're the rare guy whose guard is so good you want your opponent their in an MMA fight, you want to develop a top gained that's trained to keep guys down who are just trying to stand back up.
Firas Zahabi knows what he is talking about.
He makes some great points.
I agree with pretty much every single thing he said regarding Jiu Jitsu and MMA.
Jiu-jitsu is not MMA. It is not supplementary to, complimentary of, or a subordinate of an entirely different combat sport, whose ruleset favors striking, while negating the ability of guard players to kick or do a 12-6 elbow or hell, headbutt (as an exaggeration). MMA is its own combat sport. Jiu-jitsu is also a combat sport, a martial art, and for many, a way of life. Jiu-jitsu does not need MMA. Let them adapt jiu-jitsu for MMA, but please don't come over to our side and tell us what's wrong with our house. We can take care of our own.
He's a BJJ black belt, so he has certainly earned the right to criticize BJJ.
And his point is regarding BJJ as it relates to MMA. I think he is spot on.
I think it's about the frame. I'm more and more hating the subordination of jiu-jitsu to MMA, as if it is its little cousin, or the minor leagues. Is Firas complaining that Muay Thai fighters need to wear MMA gloves?? Personally, BJJ is all I need. Hell, the grand majority of us jiujiteiros will never get in the cage. What do we need MMA for? Self-defense? It has already been proven to the be most effective art for that. I have no interest in another combat sport, especially one that is dominated by one large corporation that favors 1) the standing game; 2) kick-punch; and 3) disproportionately weighs what happens on the ground less than what happens on the feet in terms of judging "dominance." Firas makes the assumption that BJJ is subordinate to MMA. It's not. It's its own thing. It's like a triathlete coach complaining that runners need to change their game for the triathlon. Let them do their triathlon all they want, and let the runners run. If triathletes want to run, let them, but don't start pissing on the other side. Jiu-jitsu does not belong to MMA. It's it's own thing. Most of us aren't getting in a cage. We don't need to change anything about our jiu-jitsu training. I train at American Top Team, one of the top MMA schools in the nation. There, you wanna do MMA? Cool. Do MMA. It's its own program. Jiu-jitsu becomes "jiu-jitsu for MMA class." Sure, take jiu-jitsu, but do jiu-jitsu. When you prep for a fight, you'll gear your training and set up camp for that, but we still wear a gi or our cool spats with no gloves to classes and when we go strke we wear 10-12oz gloves for Muay Thai. Again, is Firas complaining that Muay Thai fighters need to wear MMA gloves? Does Muay Thai need to change because it can be improved for MMA?
My two cents. Thanks for the reply, brother.
I get where you're coming from. But on the other hand, like Eddie said, I didn't get interested in MMA because of BJJ, I got interested in BJJ because at the beginning it proved itself to be the most dominant art in Vale Tudo. As Vale Tudo turned into MMA, BJJ pulled the shortest straw in what the new rules favored. But unfortunately with Vale Tudo gone, MMA is the most suitable proving ground for a martial art that is available. It's important to me that BJJ doesn't take it's ball and go home to live in its own little bubble like every art except BJJ was doing before the UFC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
True.
But, do you train jiu-jitsu to fantasize about what you would do in the cage? Or do you train MMA for the cage? And/or when we do jiu-jitsu, and enjoy it, and love it, don't we do it for it's own sake? What if tomorrow a concussion and brain degeneration study came out that in two years forces fighters to wear larger gloves that make gripping and RNC-ing almost impossible. Remember how Marcelo Garcia couldn't finish the RNC because of the MMA gloves we have now? Marcelo F-ing Garcia! Holy cow. Imagine the death bane if even a slight change like that occurred. Maybe ratings are low (like they were this year for the UFC) and a rule is implemented to stand fighers up more rapidly? Holy shit. Does that mean we need to start "speed submission" across the jiu-jitsu nation?? All of a sudden, we start looking like judo.
The further MMA gets from Vale Tudo, the less important it becomes from a "how much should we care about how effective our martial art is in MMA" standpoint. It has lost some importance, but it's still important.
We definitely should be calling attention to how the rules are biased against BJJ and trying to change that, but it hasn't gotten so bad (yet) that I think we should just give up on doing well there and testing the art there.
Andre Galvao said MMA made him a better BJJ fighter. I have watched Ryan Halll, Murilo Santana, Braulio Estima etc... go to Firas for instruction. John Danaher,Fiiras' coach told me in an interview recently that there would be no BJJ if there was no MMA. MMA is why we do Jiu Jitsu.
I name drop these people because they know better than we do what the definitions of this art are. 10th Planet was founded on the basis of improving MMA Jiu Jitsu.
Stay humble friends..
MMA under the modern unified rules is a screwed-up perversion of the original UFC events that turned a lot of us into grapplers in the 1990s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
So, I understand grapplers not wanting to conform their training to the needs of modern MMA.
But, if you replace "jiu-jitsu" with "kung fu" in the language quoted above, you get a lot of the same arguments the strip mall kung fu guys were making after the first few UFCs.
As far as the idea of not using mma gloves to train your Muay Thai, I actually do believe we may start seeing a transition away from some of that traditional Thai training as MMA transitions more and more into its own individual martial art.
I'm of the mind that you should practice in what you play in. If you plan to fight under MMA rules, I think you wanna play wih the MMA gloves on as much as possible, even in your pure grappling drills and rolling. There's a TREMENDOUS difference in rolling with the gloves and without them.
Combat Jiu Jitsu :)
This. One of our affiliates used to run a combat Sambo program out in North Branford. Tried it a few time and it was awesome, but definitely not something that will sustain a gym on its own. Gonna have to add "aerobic kickboxing" classes to pay the rent. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
But we are bound to history and the reality principle in our discourse. What I mean by this is that the 1993 revolution proved jiu-jitsu training does work. Precedence rejects the rehashing of that old argument for jiu-jitsu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
Hear hear. This is what Firas should have said (and probably meant).
Edit: reply to Brandon
Damn, fell asleep after posting last night. Realize now that i may have interpreted the headline and the article a bit wrong, my thoughts last night was aimed at the evolution of jiu jitsu FOR MMA, not what's currently displayed IN MMA... And i agree about losing the GI and all that. And just to clarify; I respect wrestling, Tristar and Firas. Two of my teammates from Bergen Cagefighters have been to Tristar for fight camp. Hell, i started out my martial arts training with Greco when i was i kid. What i don't fully understand is why suddenly jiu jitsu is talked about like it's only good for getting up to the feet.. Especially from guys reppin 10P. Is not 10P geared towards handling the wrestler in MMA? Working from clinch, solving the math of the bad percentage we see with jiu jitsu in MMA? I've been in the cage, used it in the cage with success.. from my back.. even in MMA training i dont have a problem with being on my back, trusting the guard and the system. I'll rather eat an elbow and some punches to get what i want than to retreat. Not saying this to act like a hardass or a duchebag, and im not an world elite MMA fighter, but damn, Ben Saunders, Omoplata, where did it come from? Rubberguard set up. Really hope and belive we are going to see more of that in the years to come with the new generation jiu jitsu fighters in MMA. Peace out! PS: Combat Jiu Jitsu, fuck yea! :) 10P4L
I saw what you wrote on Reddit and I agree with you. I'm training at 10p not because I want to do MMA, but because I love BJJ. It is it's own thing and it's older and arguably more evolved than MMA in terms of techniques.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
The 1993 revolution proved that 1993 BJJ worked. But things have changed a lot in 21 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
In 1993 BJJ they had UFC 1.
In 2014 in BJJ, they had....this:
http://youtu.be/ral-lU056aU
The best part is that the ref actually forces the other guy to engage him.
Today, it's jumping inverted guard, berimbolos, and worm guard. But, what is it going to look like in another decade?
It seems like the ethos of "BJJ is all we need/we don't care about any other combat sport" is leading traditional BJJ down a slippery slope that may end in a place very far removed from actual fighting. Some people don't care and that's fine. But, I do. I don't want grappling in 10 or 20 more years to be the ground equivalent of kung fu with a lot of flashy beautiful moves that have little relation to actual fighting.
Honestly, Eddie's Combat Jiu-Jitsu format or something conceptually close to it may be the only way to reverse this trend.
Great discussion.
I do feel that BJJ should attempt to use MMA to prove the point that the Gracie's went out to prove when they started the UFC. Now that we've started it, now that the fame of BJJ has spread this way, it's pretty tough to say "it doesn't matter." Anything after UFC 7 doesn't matter? The dude who pointed out that this sounds like typical kung fu whining nailed it.
The only thing I have to add is a concern that hopefully someone can falsify:
Is it me? Or did BJJ go out, win 3 early UFCs, hang a Mission Accomplished banner and fade out of the scene? By the end of UFC 7, BJJ folks (mostly Royce) had won just over 50% of the tournaments, with wrestlers being the primary threat. By UFC 14, BJJ seems to have faded and wrestlers seem to be dominating. To put this in context, by UFC 7, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu had one only four times as many UFCs as ninjutsu. I'm not aware of a time that BJJ has dominated the UFC since UFC 7.
Is that an unfair reading of history? Am I missing something? Or are wrestlers eating our lunch?
For the most part, I agree with him. BJJ as a whole has not adapted to MMA very well.
This is both good and bad. It's good for the sport of BJJ because it has opened things up and it's fun to play with crazy inverted rolling this and that. It's bad that guys have developed such sport oriented bottom games dependent on the gi, that in a fight, they're pretty much useless.
BJJ proved itself to be a viable combat martial art. I don't see anything wrong with the sport. But I do see some issues with the martial art. Generally takedowns are poor. The gi is an MMA hindrance. Another problem; the rules. The rules really don't simulate a realistic fight scenario. I get the need for rounds and judges for entertainment value. But it doesn't give BJJ enough time to work.
Regardless, BJJ can and should still adapt to the rules. Like Firas said, in order, it really should be sweep, submit, stand up. In rapid succession. Because time is of the essence. You want to either be on top, tapping the guy, or just plain old not on bottom so that you're not losing on the cards too bad.
I agree. BJJ served a purpose to show a glaring hole in traditional martial arts. The blending of grappling and submissions in a "no rules" scenario. But once those other martial arts filled that hole, BJJ has evolved into more of a supplement than its own effective martial art.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
Why would a guy like TJ Dillishaw obliterate Royce? TJ is not a BJJ blackbelt. Well, TJ knows enough to avoid Royce's game. Basically, during the early UFC days, people weren't aware of all of the rules and options. Imagine playing a new sport but you didn't know all the rules. Imagine playing basketball without knowing you could dribble? Well, once people learned how defend crappy takedowns and developed sub defense, and they learned how to disengage, and force stand ups....well we see what's happened.
When wrestlers got tapped by BJJ guys, they learned BJJ. When strikers were getting taken down, they learned how to adapt with sprawls, technical stand ups, etc. The only ones that haven't seemed to adapt as a whole is BJJ.
There's also what we saw at Metamoris with JT Torres, Yuri, Keenan, and hopefully at the next one Geo. In fact, I'd say today the average BJJ is sooo much more well rounded in their takedown and wrestling -- but, we also have people that specialize in guard play. That's jiu-jitsu, nothing wrong with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
The fallacy is that you are assuming those guys are wrestlers. They are MMA fighters. People like Rory McDonald who grew up doing "MMA" is the trend for MMA. Wrestlers are still wrestling at wrestling competitions, etc. BJJers are doing BJJ at BJJ comps. Muay Thai fighters are doing Muay Thai. You do not change your martial art for another sport. That is the death of judo route...Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
You know, if there were a sport that had rules that got guys to have fights that looked like the fights in kung fu movies, I would watch the hell out of that, even knowing that without those rules it could never happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
Fair enough. There are people who enjoy all kinds of activities and that is fine. To me, that is all martial LARPing which I'm not into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Gore
My white belt / tapout shirt wearing two cents here follows. ;)
That's some good defensive logic, but with some care, we can get somewhere useful here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
In short, we have to look at MMA as a simulation, figure out what we can learn, adjust for the ways we know MMA is not a good simulation, and adapt.
MMA fighters, vanilla MMA fighters have usually some strong wrestling abilities and some strong striking. Think Rich Franklin. You don't have to be a BJJ black belt to succeed in MMA.
Let's put it another way: if you were designing the perfect fighter today, you would think twice before choosing BJJ over wrestling. You'd choose wrestling and striking. You'd be *really* good at striking and you would use your wrestling in reverse on wrestlers and your wrestling / ground and pound against dudes with better striking than yours. We see this work all the time. What we don't see working all the time is dudes pulling guard.
I think this dude was saying that BJJ guys need to use their BJJ in reverse. You know who might exemplify that best? Anderson Silva. That dude's striking was so nasty that you never thought about him as a BJJ practitioner. But it saved his neck a few times! Damien Maia wasn't much of a threat despite his considerable BJJ skill!
We have to be careful here and cut finely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
MMA is a useful tool for trying to figure out what works in a fight. There are massive caveats. Both of these statements are true. You can't get to the truth by ignoring either one.
So if your martial art is getting smoked in MMA, you have to really do some soul searching and figure out why.
I think we all have to do that.
I think 10th Planet folks are doing that and our MMA representatives have something to prove. We think we've got something figured out: some aspect of the way BJJ is being conducted isn't translating well to MMA. I like Eddie's theory about emphasizing a clinch-based system. I hope we can prove the validity of that at the highest levels of MMA at some point soon.
I worry that we don't stress takedowns enough. Wrestling. I reckon we'll sort that out as we evolve and integrate really solid wrestlers.
Massive caveats to the limits of MMA (my two cents):
* People are actually allowed to wear clothes in real life. Points to gi BJJ for remembering that.
* Takedowns, I am given to understand, on concrete, are liable to hurt your knees if you shoot them like you would on a mat. There may be a reason that Judo doesn't go about its throws by slamming a knee to the ground and shooting. I wonder whether wrestling has adapted its style to accommodate mats... anyway, points to BJJ for emphasizing "safe" takedown techniques.
* Your odds of facing a high level wrestler / striker "on the streets" are pretty low. Your odds of meeting one who is wearing GSP shorts and no shirt are *very* low. If you do, your best move might be to pull out your side arm.
* Multiple attackers are a factor in self defense but never in MMA. I'm not satisfied that BJJ handles the multiple attacker scenario well.
My conclusion: the best martial combination for real life scenarios is BJJ (any kind) and gunjutsu.
Other things I think MMA teaches us:
Striking WORKS against people who can't take you down.
Wrestling WORKS against strikers who aren't well versed in wrestling.
BJJ WORKS against people who are wearing gis and have not trained against it. BJJ gives you options in case you get taken down.
I suspect your nightmare MMA fighter has top flight striking and as much wrestling and BJJ as you can fit in. He's not Jake Shields (unfortunately). Silva, Pettis, Weidman (?), Aldo...you know. ...that's why I had such high hopes for Dan Hardy back in the day.
Ok, I'm rambling. Bye bye. :D
I think it's a little like looking at boxing and saying "yeah, practicing with those big ass 16 oz. gloves isn't helping your cause". And you'd be right. But that doesn't take away from the sport of boxing at all. MMA is an art of it's own. And for MMA, he's absolutely right about how guys view it. If you're facing a savvy grappler who is on top of you and is allowed to strike you, it's a pretty tall order to try to submit him in less than 5 minutes. A majority of the time he's going to ride you out and win the round on points. Getting up and trying to get on top is probably the best bet. Just because you can play guard in jiu jitsu and crush guys doesn't mean you want to be on your back in a fight...
P.S. Pretty funny how blamed the gi number 1, then praised Aldo when Aldo is a big believer in the gi for MMA. lol +1 team no gi
The fallacy is that you assumed something that wasn't even there. Reading comprehension. I take it you don't like me (that's an assumption). I'm fine with that. But you should try actually reading what I write, not responding to whatever triggers you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Besides mentioning TJ dillashaw, the only other time I mentioned wrestlers is when I mentioned how, out of all the dominant martial arts in MMA, BJJ seems to be the only one who hasn't really adapted itself to mixed martial arts. I get your point about purity, which is ironic, because bjj was designed as a self defense art but it has evolved into a sport. Granted, these days MMA isn't really a proving ground for individual martial arts, but I feel like BJJ should have enough pride to want to prove itself as relevant modern day martial art. Not a martial art that's easy to negate with a simple sprawl or willful disengaging.
* Takedowns, I am given to understand, on concrete, are liable to hurt your knees if you shoot them like you would on a mat. There may be a reason that Judo doesn't go about its throws by slamming a knee to the ground and shooting. I wonder whether wrestling has adapted its style to accommodate mats... anyway, points to BJJ for emphasizing "safe" takedown techniques.
Ouch. Like Judo took concrete, asphalt, and cement into account when developing the throw over takedown theory into their philosophy? Judo is ancient, and so is a double leg. I'm guessing in a fight situation you could give 2 shits about if you scrape your knee (not slam) it on the ground
Aiseop is a pretty friendly guy. I doubt if he dislikes you. He didn't say anything hostile. This a pretty friendly place.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
That is definitely true. This is a very friendly forum.
There already is a promotion that's doing muay thai rules inside of a cage with MMA gloves. It's called CMT. (Caged Muay Thai)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDp...HrvQIlyzE2tDig
I'll wait for him to tell it. But I'm fine with it. Who likes an opinionated white belt? LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Gore
It is. You can be nice to people you don't like. But this thread isn't about that. His like/dislike of me is irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
Hey, brother. Ain't mean to make it seem I was going after you specifically. LOL Sorry, the topic is something I've been talked with folks for a while about - from all types of angles. I started at a "traditional" Relson school where you still do the "knee stomp - clinch - trip, mount" self-defense drills, old school style. To them, jiu-jitsu's been bastardized by the IBJJF and contemporary MMA. The only true jiu-jitsu to them is Gracie JJ which is the "only comprehensive" self-defense jiu-jitsu system we have. I am now at a different school, good JJ program, MMA oriented, but a bit late to the nogi truth. They are much more open to than the other school, but once in a while, arguments about the current state of jiu-jitsu get me a bit upset because of a few things (I mentioned above). The main one being to treat our jiu-jitsu training as if it is subservient to 1) the cage and 2) the streets. I've written at lenght about this topic HERE, but the basic gist is that jiu-jitsu does not belong to any other thing be it MMA or "the street." It's effectiveness in those arenas has been proven and bringing the issue back, much like already-settled legal cases, should be sent back down unless something entirely NEW is brought with it. :) Peace, brother. Much jiu-jitsu love from CT. Let's train sometime as NYC/Boston Ronins! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
I love your points about BJJ being its own thing. But to deny that BJJ has a place in MMA is fallacious. :) BJJ clearly has a place in MMA if guys train in BJJ for the sake of their fights. Frankie Edgar used a ton of beautiful BJJ in his recent fight against Cub. So is boxing. So are other martial arts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
I like how you said that BJJ is not subordinate to MMA. I agree with that too. But the appearance in MMA does make our great art appear weak. I think it challenges the way we have evolved BJJ as a martial art. Maybe that doesn't matter to you at all, but it matters to me. The reason I got into BJJ is because it was the first martial art that allowed me to fight back against my bully uncle. In the beginning I would be able to win from guard often, until he learned my "tricks." Then I had to learn how to sweep and work from the top. My uncle was a wrestler, coincidentally.
These days, the most successful BJJ players are players who strike into the clinch, work cage takedowns, and work top control with strikes mixed in. For the sake of the combat martial art, I believe this is the direction that BJJ should take. Paul Sass was the man until he hit a brick wall.
I mean, let's remember that Royce was getting his face battered for nearly half an hour before he was able to sink the triangle. I know there are what if's. What if it was on cement? What if there was no ref? I don't know. But what I do know is that Royce got his face pounded in for nearly half an hour. Personally, while I enjoy the option of being able to submit someone from my back, in a combat scenario, I absolutely do not want to be on my back. This is a personal philosophy regarding BJJ, I know. And I share the sentiment with Firas. Sweep. Submit. Get up. That's my belief as well whether it's self defense or MMA.
Peace, my man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Another great post. Like I said before, I love the evolution that sport BJJ has taken. But I feel as though the martial art has suffered a bit. Or, maybe I'm just assuming that a guy like Paulo Miyao would pull guard in a self defense situation only to get slammed into paralysis. Haha. Maybe BJJ guys around the world already know that you want to be on top in a self defense situation and they just play guard for the sport of it.
But I love this martial art of BJJ. And watching the crappy mistakes that professional fighters make tells me that BJJ doesn't get the respect it deserves. And the amount of black belts that get trashed in MMA is frustrating. And I currently conclude that the martial art is still supremely effective, but the philosophy and application is lacking somewhere.