Muscle memory weight gain

So I used to weigh 180/185lbs when I played football (5'6''), but dropped to 150/155 after dropping the weights to focus on jiu jitsu (jiu jitsu is waaaaaaay more fun than lifting weights). I recently started getting back into lifting, however, because I plan on competing at gracie worlds this year and want to be all strong and such. It's been working great too. I feel fantastic in my rolls, feel like I'm better equipped to hold my own with the big guys, and even feel like it's been helping me pull off techniques with better form (ex: last night I pulled off a great Russian Cowboy kneebar with excellent knee squeeze and hip drive—I absolutely suck at knee bars).

There's one problem though: I'm gaining weight. I'm eating well too! I haven't increased my calories and I've been reducing carb intake. But I've gone from my normal 150-155 fluctuation to 172 out of nowhere. I was absolutely shocked when I got on the scale for fun tonight, as I don't feel like I'm lugging around extra weight. So the gains are technically good, as I'm not larding it up, but I've just managed to go up 1-2 weight classes, which is not my desired result. I'm kinda scared that I'm gonna wind up being 185lbs again, and end up competing against monsters with long ass limbs and torsos.

So yea, dunno if I'm looking for feedback, but I had to get that off my chest lol

Yeah, it can be tough to balance strength training with jits without putting size on. Hope this gives you some ideas. I'm a big fan of hang cleans, snatch, all the explosive movements.
http://www.mensfitness.com/training/...t-size/slide/9

Thanks man. Unfortunately my lifting routine already incorporates advanced lifting techniques (explosive/eccentric/reactive/isometric variations), but my plan has been to gradually work my way up to more and more conditioning as time goes on. So I'll be adding in plyometric training eventually. The next phase is to get oly lifts in there. But I'm really hoping this will drop down.

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Originally Posted by Ross Davidson

Thanks man. Unfortunately my lifting routine already incorporates advanced lifting techniques (explosive/eccentric/reactive/isometric variations), but my plan has been to gradually work my way up to more and more conditioning as time goes on. So I'll be adding in plyometric training eventually. The next phase is to get oly lifts in there. But I'm really hoping this will drop down.

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You have time Ross, don't sweat it too much just yet. You may have to cut when you get close to time. So maybe bulk up and get your strength now, but then do more cardio/conditioning type workouts. Your body will keep the muscle it needs. Just remember you need to be able to persevere. I did all cardio/strength and conditioning type stuff for worlds last year. I really pushed my rolls to be competition style..very hard and rough. And I pushed myself to roll like that for an hour. Doesn't sound like a lot to some folks, but not everyone goes that speed and can keep it up for that long. All of the supplemented workouts were all body weight and very cardio based although I was also worried about my strength. I did a lot of holding one position types moves as well. Then incorporated explosiveness as well.

How much weight exactly are you lifting?..

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Originally Posted by Tori Applegate

You have time Ross, don't sweat it too much just yet. You may have to cut when you get close to time. So maybe bulk up and get your strength now, but then do more cardio/conditioning type workouts. Your body will keep the muscle it needs. Just remember you need to be able to persevere. I did all cardio/strength and conditioning type stuff for worlds last year. I really pushed my rolls to be competition style..very hard and rough. And I pushed myself to roll like that for an hour. Doesn't sound like a lot to some folks, but not everyone goes that speed and can keep it up for that long. All of the supplemented workouts were all body weight and very cardio based although I was also worried about my strength. I did a lot of holding one position types moves as well. Then incorporated explosiveness as well.

How much weight exactly are you lifting?..

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I'll keep that in mind.

The only exercise I've been lifting heavy with is dead lifts. I started at 300lb 5 rep max and have been sticking with it to really own the power. But I'm going to be stepping up to 315 or 325 soon.

Everything else I've kept the weight relatively low (135 bench, 115 rows, 75 over head press, 100 ghd sit ups at bw, and even just 135 for squats----but those have been atg for max ROM, so I'm not trying to go heavy at all with those yet)

But the ways in which I've been moving the weights are what's been really helping my performance. Read up on explosive, eccentric, and reactive exercise if you want.

Not sure about this, man. I've been up to 82kg, but now happily walk around about 72kg without putting weight on. I lift heavy (120kg bench, 180kg deadlift, 85kg press) but never do more than 3 sets of 3.

To me the problem seems to be you are eating too much and lifting too much. The only possible way to gain weight is to eat more calories than you expend. Your body is pretty clever in that any excess it will store as fat or muscle depending on your lifestyle: if you are tricking it into thinking it needs to be strong through strength training it will be used as muscle to help that. If you are lazy and lying around all day it will store it as fat incase you end up in a desert without food somewhere.

Remember that if you are eating your RDA but lifting in a way your body is being told it needs to get stronger it will tell your brain you need to eat more food. Again, your brain is clever and powerful - it won't tell you that you are eating too much; it will tell you that you are eating the correct amount (or not enough until your meet its requirements).

To reiterate: your brain doesn't care about weight classes: your brain cares about survival. As far as it knows all this weight lifting is you fighting polar bears or contending with rivals for food. Should it not help you get better at this (by building your body in the way you are training it) you may get killed by a predator or lose out to a rival and starve.

It sounds like you are putting are more muscle while retaining still a little bit of fat due to cutting carbs. Yes cutting carbs is good but if you are attacking the conditioning factor of working out, your body is not producing enough glucose to help break down fat. I'm not saying you should eat a lot of complex carbs because it can store up as fat, but make sure you eat healthy carbs after a hard work to help fuel the body to keep your metabolism running. Also, deadlifts put on a lot of muscle on especially from the weight you're putting up, and from your picture your legs already look like tree trunks. Try cutting the weight but raising the reps. Always keep your body guessing too while working so do not get into the "same old routine" or your body will not build muscle and burn fat as quickly as you would like. Last, remember to eat small portions of food so you are eating four course with healthy snack foods in between to help keep your metabolism running all day and drink a ton of water cause that will benefit you too.

I can assure you both that a) I'm not over eating and b) carbs are not completely out of the mix. I exercise 1-2 times everyday, so giving my body reason to kick start glucogenesis isn't an issue. I have been reading up on muscle memory however and it seems that muscle cells don't lose their excess nuclei after putting down the weights. What's very likely happening is that the weights have stimulated the nuclei to express their programming again and are causing the cells to blow up (and act like they don't know nobody).

http://news.discovery.com/human/gene...y-strength.htm

How many reps are you doing with your bench? It's really easy to put on size if you're doing alot of light weight reps. If you are only wanting to work strength and not size you need more weight and less reps. Pick a weight you can do no more than 5 reps with.

Hmmmmmmmmmm not in my experience, my friend. Maximal weight has always lead to increases in size for me. I used to power lift all the time for football.

And I'm not power lifting anymore.

Like I said, this has become a more DNA thing than anything, as it seems muscles don't lose their forceful extra curricular nucleic programming. So I'm just gonna have to deal with it and see what happens.

I wrestled for 12 years and during high school it was required we were on the power lifting team as well. I've always found that 2-3 sets of 3-5 lifts would help with strength without adding mass. The keys are, explosive and fast but controled lifts, longer rests between sets, working different muscle groups on different days, and only working a muscle group twice a week. Strength and explosiveness comes more from the motor system than the muscle. You can increase strength by increasing the firing frequently of your motor neurons and amount of neurons firing. This kind of lifting will affect your mass less and your strength more. Doing this method you're only doing around 30 reps of any one exercise a week. It's not enough to build much muscle but is perfect for increased firing frequently for neurons and training more neurons to fire together.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

It's not enough to build much muscle but is perfect for increased firing frequently for neurons and training more neurons to fire together.

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I don't know if this is bro science or not, but it makes sense to me. Obviously the amount of muscle someone has is not exactly equated to how strong they are. Everyone knows a skinny dude who is deceptively strong, and also beefy guys who are not nearly as strong as you expect. This makes sense to explain why.

When your muscle contracts, if only a percentage of the muscle cells contract, it would make the muscle weaker. If you could train in a way to increase the number of fibers that contract, you could increase strength without adding muscle at all.

I like this thread. I don't like lift weight so this good read

It's not bro science lol its actual science. I have a B.S. in bio and chem, there's also all kinds of articles about it if you Google it. It's how alot of wrestlers lift without leaving their weight class and helps develop their explosiveness.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

I wrestled for 12 years and during high school it was required we were on the power lifting team as well. I've always found that 2-3 sets of 3-5 lifts would help with strength without adding mass. The keys are, explosive and fast but controled lifts, longer rests between sets, working different muscle groups on different days, and only working a muscle group twice a week. Strength and explosiveness comes more from the motor system than the muscle. You can increase strength by increasing the firing frequently of your motor neurons and amount of neurons firing. This kind of lifting will affect your mass less and your strength more. Doing this method you're only doing around 30 reps of any one exercise a week. It's not enough to build much muscle but is perfect for increased firing frequently for neurons and training more neurons to fire together.

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Exactly how I train (3 x 3) and exactly how I've managed to increase strength / explosion without putting on size.

OP, it is impossible for you to be gaining 'mass' without eating surplus calories. That's like saying the amount of petrol in your car's tank is higher when you arrive at your destination than when you left. Your theory may explain why you put weight on quicker: i.e. your body is able to handle more weight because your brain has experience it before (I'd say this is more of a psychological advantage where you can push through boundaries / your experience means your technique is good enough that you can advance very quickly).

Final thought: are you taking any supplements? Extra amount of salt? If you are taking creatine and eating foods loaded in salt (as many 'healthy' low calorie options are) then that may explain some of it - your water retention might be up significantly.

"You buy baby lion. Everyday you carry baby lion on back up to mountain. Every day lion become a little bigger, and stronger. And you, with baby lion, grow big and strong." - Vitor Belfort

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Originally Posted by Apperz

Exactly how I train (3 x 3) and exactly how I've managed to increase strength / explosion without putting on size.

OP, it is impossible for you to be gaining 'mass' without eating surplus calories. That's like saying the amount of petrol in your car's tank is higher when you arrive at your destination than when you left. Your theory may explain why you put weight on quicker: i.e. your body is able to handle more weight because your brain has experience it before (I'd say this is more of a psychological advantage where you can push through boundaries / your experience means your technique is good enough that you can advance very quickly).

Final thought: are you taking any supplements? Extra amount of salt? If you are taking creatine and eating foods loaded in salt (as many 'healthy' low calorie options are) then that may explain some of it - your water retention might be up significantly.

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My basal metabolic rate is around 3114 currently at 173, however, I have only been consuming 2500~ calories per day.

However, my diet is arranged to maximize growth hormone secretion and insulin sensitivity (fats and moderate proteins during the morning and afternoon, carbs at night after training [please do not make me go find the studies I have studied upon this subject as to the benefits of eating carbs at night/only once per day], along with significant choline supplementation in the mornings and afternoons). I have also been taking 10,000 iu of vitamin d3 per day for a loading phase of 4 weeks (in week 3 right now), so the endocrine effects effects of that shouldn't be maximized yet.

Despite this diet and supplementation, 18lbs of muscle is HARD to pack on. Going from 135 to 185 took me YEARS to do, so I know that 18lbs in 3 weeks is nothing to shake a stick at. So even if my diet has been helping me heal faster (which it has) it's not going to explain this rapid gain without an additional factor: muscle memory.

Also, you can gain muscle mass while fasting. That's right, no calories at all. The endocrine system is remarkable and goes well beyond the basic black and white conceptions of bodily function.

As to the how I exercise point, and the point about education, I have already stated that my lifting routines are well thought out and advanced. Explosivity is just one facet of weight lifting, and I'm also about to graduate with a biology degree. And I have done a great deal of data mining on the endocrine system.

Muscle memory may be making you gain size faster but the reason you're gaining mass is due to how you are lifting. If you were lifting specifically for faster and more neurons firing the muscle memory wouldn't be an issue. It's only an issue if the lifting you are doing is increasing muscle mass then muscle memory can accelerate the process. Explosiveness is just one facet of power lifting but if you are looking not to add mass it's the most important. It's why boxers and wrestlers who have weight classes to maintain train so much for explosiveness.

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Originally Posted by Ross Davidson

My basal metabolic rate is around 3114 currently at 173, however, I have only been consuming 2500~ calories per day.

However, my diet is arranged to maximize growth hormone secretion and insulin sensitivity (fats and moderate proteins during the morning and afternoon, carbs at night after training [please do not make me go find the studies I have studied upon this subject as to the benefits of eating carbs at night/only once per day], along with significant choline supplementation in the mornings and afternoons). I have also been taking 10,000 iu of vitamin d3 per day for a loading phase of 4 weeks (in week 3 right now), so the endocrine effects effects of that shouldn't be maximized yet.

Despite this diet and supplementation, 18lbs of muscle is HARD to pack on. Going from 135 to 185 took me YEARS to do, so I know that 18lbs in 3 weeks is nothing to shake a stick at. So even if my diet has been helping me heal faster (which it has) it's not going to explain this rapid gain without an additional factor: muscle memory.

Also, you can gain muscle mass while fasting. That's right, no calories at all. The endocrine system is remarkable and goes well beyond the basic black and white conceptions of bodily function.

As to the how I exercise point, and the point about education, I have already stated that my lifting routines are well thought out and advanced. Explosivity is just one facet of weight lifting, and I'm also about to graduate with a biology degree. And I have done a great deal of data mining on the endocrine system.

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2500 cals seems way to high. I'm 195lbs and I'm eating 1500 calories a day, with training and lifting, I'm trying to lose weight tho.

I highly doubt you can gain muscle by fasting, where's the protein coming from?

Thirdly, if you're just getting out of high school you're probably growing. I gained 30lbs the year after high school, and another 20 after than.

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Originally Posted by derrick hornick

2500 cals seems way to high. I'm 195lbs and I'm eating 1500 calories a day, with training and lifting, I'm trying to lose weight tho.

I highly doubt you can gain muscle by fasting, where's the protein coming from?

Thirdly, if you're just getting out of high school you're probably growing. I gained 30lbs the year after high school, and another 20 after than.

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2500 calories is fine for him long as carbs are low and fats are high especially if you are training, lifting and doing cardio.

If you're almost 200 I would recommend you consume more calories for weight loss. Add some fat like nuts and avocado on top of your diet and you'll lose much faster.

Sounds to me like you are thinking way too much on this. You are lifting all these weights, takin supplements, eating 'well', timing your macros and wondering why you are putting on weight? You are training like a person who wants to put on weight... If you want to stop putting on weight do what Andrew (and pretty much every other resource) suggests and lift like a person who doesn't want to put on weight... restricted diet, minimal reps, heavy weights, maximum rest.

Ok I got this.. you gotta.. wait. Huh?

If you can execute and move properly, you are on weight. Muscular strength and explosiveness helps you move and a lean body is preferable but not necessary.

I do 100% body weight movements.

Fascinating and informative thread as I don't know squat about lifting. To the thread creator, you may want to change your approach/routine for a couple weeks (as an experiment) to those that have been suggested by a couple of the other knowledgeable contributors as currently it seems that you are not getting the results you are looking for. Keep an open mind.

body weight movements are where its at. also, what are you thinking gaining all that weight, fat boy? you are gonna have to get a new pair of grappling capris

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Originally Posted by Art C

Fascinating and informative thread as I don't know squat about lifting. To the thread creator, you may want to change your approach/routine for a couple weeks (as an experiment) to those that have been suggested by a couple of the other knowledgeable contributors as currently it seems that you are not getting the results you are looking for. Keep an open mind.

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Also, Original Poster, that study you pointed to was a study on mice. If you are willing to accept advice from a study done on weight lifting mice, but not listen to tried and tested advice from your 10th Planet Brothers I, for one, am truly hurt! :D :D :D