https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boaRCuFQCPI
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Fun match! Eddie's comments after the match were pretty cool. he had a lot of good things to say about Denny. Skip to 56:55 check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XDjXiO1Xn0
When I trained with Eddie and Gary in Jan in Ann Arbor, Eddie was very very cool and surprisingly down with the system. He knew all about the stuff from school to what hotboxes were and moves said he had a ton of respect for us and he loves learning new aspects of the system.
Thanks for posting these. :D
Denny learned ALOT from this loss and will be back stronger. Eddie is a VERY cool guy, super friendly and respectful. I'm lookin forward to seeing him work that leg lock magic at EBI 3 :-)
I know what I'm about to say would complicate things, but there should be some sort of penalty for just sitting. Other sub-only orgs penalize sitting down without properly pulling guard as it doesn't reflect the spirit of true sub-only combat.
disagree, rather watch someone sit and go right at it then 2 people fight for tie ups and take downs if or guys getting shucked off of attempted guard pulls.
disagree, I don't have a problem with watching somebody sit, I have the problem with somebody not steppin' up, engaging the guy on the ground, passing and getting the sub, or fail trying. The guy is giving you a gift by giving you top position, take it and go for it!! I won't even watch 4 minutes of standing patty cake hand slappin'. This is purely from a spectator point of view for my personal entertainment purposes.
Agree - sitting down means more time for jiujitsu not wrestling. That's a good thing. It's not meant to be a self defence demo.
I agree with this. Takedowns are cool and fun. They manage to score takedowns in NCAA and Olympic wrestling. It's not like it's mission impossible if guys are actually incentivised to train for it. This sitting down stuff is not very cool and shouldn't really be a part of a "combat sport".Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Plus, you can always actually pull guard or half-guard (like Eddie did to Royler).
Much respect to these guys like Eddie Cummings for the dedication and crazy mat hours it has taken to elevate this style to such a technical level. But, I was really glad when ADCC started punishing it in the finals, and I would definitely welcome even harsher penalties for it in all tournaments in general.
There are different ways to play sitting on your ass. I have zero problem if you sit on your ass as long as you are aggressive and attacking. It takes two to tango, realize that the guy sitting is giving the other dude a gift so it could be just as much his fault for not taking the gift and backing away or not attacking. Like Eddie says its like choosing to kick off and play defense first. I agree that takedowns are an important aspect of grappling and self defense but this is a exhibition match not a street fight. No one is butt scooting in a street fight.
As far as sitting on your ass, I thought Denny should have just stood back and rested after he finally got out of the body triangle. If Eddie was just going to sit there, Denny should have rested up while standing back. Instead he waded right back in and quickly got caught. Props to Denny for pushing the action, but if you've just gotten out of a body triangle where the guy was trying to choke you for 5 minutes, it's not your responsibility to push the action. Even the first time I watched this match, when Denny started heading right back in I was thinking "nooo, rest up first, you're tired and he's going to catch you!!"
Obviously I have no idea what was going through Denny's mind, but my hunch is he was pissed about getting squeezed and choked for 5 minutes and wanted some payback. But he was hasty and that's all she wrote.
For me it's more of a "lack of combativeness" penalty. I don't like the idea that the onus was placed on Denny to engage Cummings on his turf. I'm not sure what the rules said, but if Denny would have just stood stiff like a statue and nobody moved, what would the ref have done? Ask Denny to go to Cummings who's waiting for him to stick a leg there to attack? Or ask Cummings to stand up, letting Denny play his guard game?
It was a sub only match, why would someone engage in a takedown battle? More than likely you will just get tired and end up in the same position
If Denny wanted to play guard he could have went double guard pull and worked from there
I didn't compete this year, but last year at Gracie Nationals you were not allowed to sit down and wait for your opponent to engage. You were required to at least have wrist control and actually pull guard. I had an opponent back out of my guard and disengage multiple times, and the ref made me stand up. Maybe the rules were different for the superfights?
I agree with Aiseop. Sitting down and pulling guard are two different things. This could of been a casual(high level) rolling session at any given gym on a Tuesday night. Not a 'superfight'. If this is your strategy to go through a tourney and conserve your energy, that's a different story. But this was put together to entertain the fans and competitors of jj. I built these matches up to my new students and people I wanted to try jj. I wanted them to see how exciting jj can be when done by players at the highest level. Instead they saw the strategy of an amazing grappler who only wanted to win. In a superfight scenario, winning should not be your only objective(just the main one). Entertainment should be high on the priority list as well. It's not just the win, but how you win #winway. Denny showed up to do both. Eddie just wanted to win. You can be a deadly grappler and still boring in your approach. It's hard for me to be a fan of this style. Take chances and realize there are spectators who came to witness a display of skill. Roll like this during open mat, not when all eyes and cameras are on you.
And I also agree that you can sit then aggressively buttscoot to engage, which I'm also fine with.
You guys are really going after Cummings? He swept, had the back and finished with a heel hook
Not personally dude.. His strategy for a superfight put together for the entertainment of the fans.
So what was wrong with the match? They came to sub each other and that's what happened
The only thing it was missing was a stand up portion which is usually the most boring part of a bjj match
The fact that if Denny didn't engage. Eddie would still be sitting there.. Compare it to when Rafa sits. He's spinning around you like a stripper pole and ready to pop up at any moment.
Roll how you want. This is a personal opinion.
Regarding the takedown vs. butt-scooting opinion, I'll just reference one match at the last Metamoris. Vinny Magaelhaes vs. that dude from Marcelo's. Vinny ended up jumping guard since things had grown stale on the feet. Not playing for points. I feel like Denny bet on himself in this match as he should and everyone should every match and there was just a scenario that he got caught. I can't speak for him, but when I got footlocked twice in the same tournament I got home that night and reviewed the SHIT outta footlock escapes. A dude of Denny's caliber is gonna wreck people from this experience.
The same can be said about standing up to though look at Nathan Orchards match in MI a few months back, Denny had the same freedom to sit first as well. Like it was said Denny obliviously felt ok attacking from top if there was gonna be any complaint of the match i would pick at the body triangle where he just kind of sat there to tire him out. I thought it was an excellent match also dont understand the gripe of sitting as long as your being aggressive with it. Even if you aren't then it should just leave you open for passes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
He wasn't being aggressive while sitting. He was aggressive when engaged. You can initiate attacks from a seated position, as opposed to just countering pass attempts.
The thing I keep coming back to is the effect this will have on submission grappling over the long term. We are still riding the wave of our connection to MMA's initial popularity. But, that may end one day.
Let's say you're a 22 year old guy shopping around for a combat sport. Do you choose boxing, muay thai, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, or the one where your first move is to sit down and menacingly scoot towards your opponent?
I know which one would look the least like fighting to an uneducated 22 year old. It is also probably the last one he would pick.
I see nothing wrong with Eddie sitting down and not willing to wrestle. Who cares about what your opponent does? He sits down, go pass his guard. He keeps standing, take him down or sit down yourself. I think people need to stop worrying and bitching about what other guy does and just grapple from any position match takes you to. Eddie did what he wanted to do, what's wrong with that? Neither one of them tried to stall, IMO. One guy tried to engage from BTFLY guard, another tried to pass.
Seems like a valid strategy to me. Eddie is a known leg-lock guy, right? So his strategy was obviously "you can come sit down with me and we'll play footsey. Or you can keep your legs back and try to get around my butterfly. Your choice"Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge Bunimovich
In a real fight you kick the guy in the face at that point. In MMA you step back and make the ref stand him up. In this ruleset, you gotta choose one of those first 2 options, play footsey or keep your legs back and try to pass.
Seems valid to me.
I guess there was a 3rd option... step back and taunt the guy. "Cmon pussy, stand the fuck up and fight me like a man". "You trying to have a fuckin tea-party or something, stand up!"
In this case Denny tried to pass. Valid approach. But he ended up getting caught in that body triangle and had to fight Eddie off. He managed to get out which was awesome! He fought like hell and got out.
Then he made I think his 1 big mistake. Instead of rest, relax, regroup, he went right back into the fire. Eddie switched to attacking the legs, and BAM, game over.
I really feel like if Denny had just stepped back at that point. Slow the breathing, relax, regroup. Take as much time as you want at that point. That would have made Eddie's strategy weak, because it relied on Denny doing something. If Eddie continues to sit on his butt, Denny can fully rest back up and all the advantage Eddie had from all that work is lost.
If Eddie was smart, at that point when he seens Denny just standing back and breathing, he probably stands up and engages, right?
Cause if Eddie backs up and starts resting, Denny can either let him rest, or stand up, right? The onus is now on Eddie to press the action since he has a cardio advantage at that point.
All combat sports have a "lack of combativeness" penalty. Now, this thread has changed from my initial inquiry as to the sitting down thing. However, I do believe that if a fighter sits down, the other fighter SHOULD NOT BE COMPELLED to engage him. If I were fighting Cummings (well, I'd be destroyed in two seconds) I would simply stand there and not move knowing his leg game. I would want to take him down on my terms, hopefully ending in side control or another dominant position. I would be pissed if there were no rule that would ask the sitting fighter to "fight."Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge Bunimovich
and in that case you would be the one stalling, right? He sits down and you just standing there not willing to pass. Don't you think you should get penalized in this case for not engaging?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Bingo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge Bunimovich
Cummings wasn't stalling; he strategically chose which battlefield the engagement should take place on. It was a wise choice.
Penalizing Cummings for sitting would be utterly stupid in a sub only tourney, as utterly stupid as penalizing Denny for standing up repeatedly to avoid Cummings attacks.
I'm trying to win. Period. And if I have an advantage by sitting on my butt and counter fighting, then by God that's exactly what I'm gonna do. If you have an advantage in the standup department, I'm looking to take that away from you. Get better at passing guard and avoiding sweeps and leg entanglements if you don't like it. I'm not interested in being exciting; I'm interested in taking a limb back to my house to throw on the grill and feed to my children.
Not true at all, IMO. Let's say Denny sits down about two body lengths away from Cummings. Now you have two combatants expressing lack of combativeness. How does a ref "reset" the match to get them to fight? He stands them up. Does a ref in this situation say "butt scoot to each other?" Of course not. I'm not saying Cummings didn't have a great strategy. He did. I just think the onus should not fall on the standing fighter to engage the sitting fighter. If Denny decided to just stand there and wait for Cummings to approach, I hope the ref would have compelled Cummings and not Denny to engage. Many tournaments, including Good Fight and US Grappling, two sub-only, prevent sitting without pulling guard for the very reasons stated above that deal with being as true to combativeness as possible.
In fact, I would add that critics of the sub-only movement are right that the takedown/throw aspect needs some fixing. The IBJJF points has that advantage that a takedown/throw matters in combat. Sub-only removes this. Whether you agree or not, ok, but you can't express to me that most people think sitting in a fight is a good idea.
Talking about how Cummings played seems ridiculous to me in a bjbjj match, he sat, he is giving up the top passing position, they're to grapple and sub each other, talking about takedowns is silly for this
Denny had many options, he could have sat also if he wanted
Look what happened at the end, Eddie swept, got the top and than immediately went for the leg and won by sub
That's bjj match, not "bjbjj", phone posting issue
No kidding, That dude's notorious for getting up an advantage or a point and stalling you out. It's the wackest strategyQuote:
Originally Posted by DavidHamp
i don't know, I guess what I am trying to say is that I am tired of people complaining about other grapplers' styles. People bitch about everyone and everything. They bitch about Miyao bros pulling guard and trying to berimbolo everyone, every time. They bitch about Dean Lister going for leg locks only. They bitch about Jeff Glover's clowning. They bitch about Rafa Mendes trying to berimbolo Clark Gracie for 20 minutes. Shit, I read someone talking shit about Leonardo Lo, saying that he always does the same thing(takedown, pass, submit) and doesn't try anything else. Who are we to judge them? It is THEIR jiu jitsu. THEIR style. They are not doing for you or I. How about you stop worrying about what others do and concentrate on your own game? Guy pulls guard on you? Big fucking deal!!! Don't bitch about him not wanting to wrestle. Get good at passing. Or pull guard before he pulls it. Whatever. Don't like how game is played? Do not compete!!!!
Anyways, what do I know? I am just a blue belt and haven't competed in over a year. Maybe I am wrong or just talking out of my ass. Just my 2 cents.
You ever watch a fight and after the 3rd time you see something completely different? I'm really not sure what the hell I saw. At the beginning of the match Eddie rushed in and aggressively attacked the 2on1 then pulled. What I thought was not engaging was really Eddie just working what he could because Denny didn't stand pass and just kneeled so Eddie couldn't get under him. They both went for it. It was a good match. I'm eating crow and it tastes like chicken. Lil chewy tho.
Nobodies bitching. If you are tired of people's opinions and assessments steer clear of Internet forums. And it's ironic that you proceed to bitch for a full paragraph about how you hate bitching:)
Point fighter through and through.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
http://youtu.be/6k4pIcFAM9AQuote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
That was when I went against him in the finals for the ibjjf. Got poked in the eye a few times, and lost my cool. He ankled picked me which was good on him, but i mean at least control the ground and do some jiu jitsu. I felt super bad for Orchard when he did the same shit to him.
Moral of the story, just pull guard and git'rdone
i saw it live, no complaints from me. everyone knew what eddie was after . Denny showed me the way Eddie got it. pretty tricky shit. gotta say, those dudes showed up , in the middle of a 80% 10P log jam,lol, super chill and respectful and both got the win. was a great day although I dont know about the rules there were so many draws that a 15 person bracket could mean you have only 1-2 matches for 1st
saw dudes DOMINATE their matches but no sub. gotta be a middle ground for sub only and points