Once Rafa starts playing the top around 9-10 mins in he puts the cheat code on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDMAznWHVZA
Once Rafa starts playing the top around 9-10 mins in he puts the cheat code on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDMAznWHVZA
Man...much respect to Rafa and the others for the amount of dedication and mad mat hours it has taken to turn their style into such a high level technical discipline.
But...god damn...I miss the days when sitting down was not considered the apex of ground fighting. Probably I'm alone on that...but I do really feel regret that this is such a significant part of grappling now.
ADCC currently punishes it in the finals. But, I would honestly welcome even much more draconian penalties for sitting like this.
http://youtu.be/Qvs56RRRLiMQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
What a boring finals.
Yeah, I agree, and it highlights the problem. Some of the best guys in our sport would rather stall furiously than even chance a takedown when they are not allowed to sit down.
It's because Rafa and Cobrinha don't have a reason to really train for takedowns and their skillsets are a product of rules that allow sitting down. IIRC, this was the first year ADCC did this. ADCC is also basically the only tournament they compete in that does this, and ADCC only does it in the finals. So, there's never been much incentive for them to hone their takedowns. They know they can get to the finals without takedowns, and basically just wing it once they get there (and only at ADCC starting in 2013).
Olympic wrestling gold medal matches are generally exciting. NCAA D1 finals matches are generally exciting. It's because they know takedowns are a must in every match (not just the finals) and actually train for it.
If sitting was penalized heavily enough in every match in every tournament then guys would actually train for takedowns and the stand up would be exciting just like it is wrestling.
Just my opinion. I know I will probably be in the severe minority on this.
Grappling is an incredible sport that has shaped my adult life in a lot of ways. I just think it would be even better if we replace "sit down menacingly" with "hit a full speed takedown".
I'd say it's exciting because of the lack of submissions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
I don't think they were stalling (if this is the match where they are both standing for 45 minutes - I can't see as I'm at work), I think they knew how difficult each other was to take down and they also knew that pulling guard would be incredibly difficult on one another. Cobrinha and Mendes are monster guard passes and have incredible balance. It was a very, very difficult match for them both as a result - they were waiting for the other to make a mistake and when you get two guys of this level together it just doesn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
It's a fair point that guillotines and other subs change the dynamics of takedowns.
But, it seems like the stand up portion of matches in submission grappling where at least one of the guys has high level takedown skills are generally pretty short and usually A LOT more exciting than that Rafa vs. Cobrinha ADCC 2013 final.
I'm thinking of matches like the Team Takedown vs. Team Guard Pullers series at Grappler Quest: Johnny Hendricks vs. Diffley, Shane Roller vs. Ryan Hall, Rosholt vs. Raedy (both D1 wrestlers in that match).
Rustam Chsiev's matches. Toquinho's matches. Jake Shields ADCC matches. Gilbert Melendez's ADCC/GQ matches. GSP's ADCC matches.
There are exceptions, but the stand up portion of matches with these guys are generally pretty exciting and/or short even though submissions are allowed. Even in that Rosholt vs. Raedy match where you have two D-1 wrestlers, the stand up action lasts less than 90 seconds and it's reasonably active. Shields vs. Diego Sanchez (both wrestlers) in ADCC is another example at around 20 seconds of standup before a takedown.
Subs definitely change how they go for takedowns. But, it seems like the rules the contestants came up under (rules that force takedowns vs. rules that allow sitting down) are a much bigger determinant in how exciting/swift the stand up is.
I get where you're coming from. I don't mean they were stalling in the sense of stalling for the clock to run out. I mean they were stalling having to actually go for a takedown. Neither one has ever had to focus on takedowns to the extent they would if sitting were disallowed throughout their careers, so they were just stalling and hoping for the other person to commit to a takedown attempt instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apperz
I don't think we would have seen this if they had gone their whole careers taking a penalty point or two every time they sat down. I think they would have gotten good at being aggressive on the feet just like wrestlers. The guys in the gold medal match in the Olympics are also contending with nearly impossible opponents, but they generally manage to be aggressive. It's just that the rules they came up under fostered that whereas the "sit if you like" rules that Rafa and Cobrinha came up under do not (at all).
Rafa is the best in the world, Gi or No Gi, unbelievable
Fun to see Gui in a No gi match, the only other match I remember seeing him in on video was his match with Rafa in an old AD pro event
According to BJJ Heroes they've had over 150 matches between them and only lost by submission twice (both of those were Cobrinha being tapped, Mendes hasn't lose by sub at blackbelt yet), so that means you are playing for points - unless you want to play the 2% odds you can pull out a submission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
You let Rafa pull you into guard and he is plotting the backtake before he hits the floor. You let him get on top and he is giving you 10 minutes of directional changes that a single slip up will see you lose the match (coming back from behind on Rafa is going to be super tough).
If Cobrinha gets underneath you he is a master at sweeping - I imagine Rafa knew that his only real shot at losing was if he got swept (he has had his guard passed before - possibly even by Cobrinha, if I remember rightly - but it's a rarity).
The result is that you get a match where both are trying to win by a narrow margin: a sweep or a takedown. The other knows this and therefore doesn't want to risk being put in a position where they will be swept or takedown. As such they were keeping themselves safe whilst waiting for the other person to make a mistake. Can't remember who said it (possibly Ryan Hall), but good fighters hardly make any mistakes, the best make none. If you are waiting for a mistake and none comes... nothing happens.
That said, I am with you in some ways. I wish we didn't have to have matches like this - but I don't fault the competitors. They ARE doing everything they can to win. You can bet in Rafa's head he is screaming at himself to take this guy down or to pull him into guard, but the part of us - the master fighter part of his brain that so few of us have or listen to - is telling him he shouldn't and that is why he is where he is: he didn't feel it so he didn't do it. He didn't make the mistake we'd have made. Cobrinha I am sure was thinking the exact same thing.
Anyone who saw the match know it was a draw. None of them lost. None of them won either, but then perhaps that was because on that day no one could have done anything to win, just done something to make themselves lose.
*shrugs*
Rafa has never been subbed at black belt
Actually, he has only had his guard passed once which was over 5 or 6 years ago, think about that, lol
When there was no guard pulling penalty, Rafa and Cobrinha had probably the best No Gi match ever, 2007 I believe
P.S. I know I went off on a tangent away from your argument about wrestling being super exciting. But personally I don't really like wrestling. I'd be more than happy to see Jiu Jitsu matches start with both players facing each other in butterfly position (Marcelo-esque) and then they can choose to stand up or not. I know some people love takedowns and they are a 'natural' part of the sport (if you consider most fights start standing), but it isn't what I love about Jiu Jitsu. I love the ground.
I think I said that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
Your first sentence sounds like Rafa was subbed twice, by Cobrinha
Jack Hanley, you got a lot of good posts, so I didn't want to just quote one, but I have a few thoughts on the guard pulling talk in here, which I think is a good discussion.
- Regarding the matches in Chechnya, they were paid a lot of money to go there and put on a show. I also think Quexinho was not engaging that much for the early part of the match, and Rafa's guard is more of a counter-puncher type of guard. So he'll wait for someone to step in and then he'll sweep. Gui Mendes obviously plays very little guard, his strength is clearly the top, and Rafa Mendes played more guard than Gui does, but he seems to be playing less now.
- I think Rafa's bigger strength is also playing the top, as evidence by what he does once he gets there, and also by his recent passing performances at the match the day before these 2 in Chechnya and also at the Rickson Cup, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMy7lKUo8aU which Eddie said would go down as "one of the greatest massacres of all time"). Rafa's an excellent passer, and I do think he'd be even better with more takedowns in the mix. Gui has a really heavy smash pass style, and Rafa has a really speedy AND1 side to side footwork style of passing. Sometimes I'm surprised that Rafa doesn't bring in more wrestlers, considering that he has a lot of money and resources compared to most other competitors.
- Rafa has improved his wrestling. It may not sound like much at the last ADCC, but he didn't pull guard once, and he got takedowns in several of his matches leading up to the finals. It may not have been against D1 wrestlers, but this was the first time in his career that I can remember seeing him wrestle on the feet. He's also been wrestling more for takedowns in sparring at his academy if the online training vids from there are any indication. I think that's a big step.
- I actually think Cobrinha is one of the better wrestlers in jiu-jitsu. he and Marcelo both have pretty good wrestling, and seated wrestling. Much of Cobrinha's guard game is even based around coming up onto single legs and taking people down from the feet. He has really awesome single legs and snap downs. In his match with Rafa at ADCC 2013, I thought he showcased pretty good wrestling. Both guys were exhausted after 2 tough days in China, Cobrinha is a decade older than Rafa, the mats were slippery, falling apart (literally), and Rafa is pretty good at not getting taken down. Another consideration is that at ADCC, you do not get takedown points if you take someone down without landing and controlling them completely flat on their back. For example, the following takedown put Cobrinha in danger of a leg entanglement situation and did not earn him any points, although in any other tournament this would have been 2 points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvs56RRRLiM#t=37m4s So I think Cobrinha was being careful in the takedowns he attempted.
- None of that takes away from the fact that the ADCC 2013 match was boring. No way around it. Their 2009 ADCC match was a 40 minute double OT classic. Their 2011 match was less exciting, and their 2013 was less exciting even more. I also don't disagree that a -1 for any guard pull in a match would've made both of them better on the feet. I'm not sure how I feel about a -1 for pulling across the board, but it's an interesting idea. I know they asked Rafa after his Cobrinha loss if he thought more wrestling would have helped him but he actually said no, which I thought was strange. I clearly thought he lost the decision because he got out-wrestled pretty strongly on the feet.
- I also agree with you that submissions off of takedown attempts alter takedown strategies, but I think it sorts itself out. To keep it on Rafa/Cobrinha, in their awesome ADCC 09 finals, Cobrinha shot a couple arm drags to singles, and every time Rafa locked on deep anaconda or darce chokes, one of which Cobrinha said basically put him to sleep as he escaped. Cobrinha started changing his takedown strategies as the match went on, and it didn't stop being exciting, and it didn't stop the majority of the match from playing out on the floor. Your point about this is really good I think.
Great post Mike Nall as usual
I just posted the other day on the UG how people thinking the Mendes brothers are just "butt floppers", they have really good takedows and Rafa trains with the SD Atos guys like Galvao,,Torres, Keenan, etc...and in the ADCC training vids they start from standing alot and battle takedowns
Cobrinha has a really good wrestling game
And like you said, Rafa has been killing it with the top game lately, he has become more passer heavy lately and destroying guards
Do you mean Rafa has been subbed by Cobrinha twice? or that Cobrinha has been subbed twice? I know since brown belt he's only been tapped twice, only once at his weight, and it was an armbar from Rafa in the gi a few years ago. I agree with every word of your post except the last part. I think if you didn't look at any points in their ADCC 2013 match, and you just watched what happened, I think Rafa got out grappled in this match. I thought Cobrinha got 1 or 2 significant takedowns that didn't score, but clearly showed that the balance tipped in his favor. Even die hard Rafa fans in the chat during the match were saying that it would be shame if Cobrinha didn't get the nod. He worked hard for that win and he earned it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apperz
You're right he hasn't competed no-gi since that 2011 comp and I wish we could see him do it more because I like his style a lot. His top game reminds me of mine, but obviously he's way better at it. It's different from Rafa's but rally cool. From what I hear he's like the opposite of Jeff Glover, who doesn't really like competing in the gi, but still trains it. Gui doesn't really like competing in no-gi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
Yeah man. The last time his guard was passed was when he was 18 or 19 in 2008 in his first match with Cobrinha. he was playing deep half, and was sworn it off since. He's never even been close to getting passed since then. Keenan Cornelius and Michael Langhi said that even with the Atos ADCC 2013 camp having Rafa, Andre Galvao, JT Torres, and Keenan Cornelius in it, with Dean Lister helping some too, that Rafa was never tapped once in the entire 2-3 month camp for the event. That's crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
Mike, im sure you seen the video of Rafa and Galvao training No Gi and Rafa fighting off double under passes and than catching him with an anaconda choke, just ridiculous
Totally. I know it's still on their site but I think they took it off youtube. :/ That was one of the most intense rolls I think I've ever seen. That choke with less than 10 seconds left was ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
I couldn't agree more Rob. Especially Gui. His fake guard pull to ankle pick takedown is sick and he does it all the time. I think people that say things like "the Mendes Bros style" aren't paying attention. Their guard, guard passing, and their submissions are pretty different in some key ways that don't really need to be broken down here. But you get it. People talk about them like they're the same person, which is wrong. And on top of that, it's like they aren't even seeing what they're doing. Even if Rafa pulls guard a lot, at least they always start from the feet which is more than most academies do.
And yeah dude I think Cobrinha's wrestling is one of the strongest parts of his game. Again people think featherweight=butt scooter, when I think Cobrinha's biggest skill is his top pressure and ability to blend wrestling into his guard play, just like Marcelo. [/QUOTE]
Yeah, I meant that Cobrinha has only been tapped twice at Blackbelt (that I could find - only once that I'd seen), but I worded it strangely didn't I? I've gone back and edited it nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike Nall
For anyone reading in hindsight: It was because I said they had over 150 matches collectively and across that they'd only been tapped twice (both taps belonging to Cobrinha). I guess that could be read in a number of ways!
Anyway, Mike, I'm glad you agree with so much of what I said.
About the last bit, I was talking about it in my 'sub only' mentality - i.e. none of them lost within the rules they were choosing not to win or lose by. They both decided the other would not score a point more than them and they both ensured that was the case. They gambled then on the other opponent making a mistake (which I have already commented on, and none of them did). I believe Cobrinha had Mendes closest to 'trouble' when he got him in a disgusting footlock (if I remember rightly), so I put that down to why Cobrinha won. That said Mendes evidently has Stretch Armstrong as a father, so perhaps he let Cobrinha have that one with the knowledge that his rubber ankles/knees wouldn't snap.
In all seriousness, it has been a while since I watched it (not the kind of match you watch too many times), so I should probably revisit it and check up on some of the points you made and possibly refresh my view :)
I watched that with two friends and we were all open-mouthed. You can see (and hear) how frustrated Andre is getting and Rafa's just playing with his hair. Just insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
one of which was that crazy leg-in triangle if i recall correctlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Apperz
Totally man! yeah I think another reason their 1st ADCC match was so awesome is because they were still feeling each other out as competitors. i ruly think they have a style where it's almost impossible to get a really exciting match out of them at this point. It doesn't help that ADCC pays more than any tournament, and the difference in pay between gold and silver is pretty big. And you're right in 2011 Cobrinha had a disgusting inside heel hook on Rafa, and Rafa was limping pretty bad after and had to ice his knees for a bit. He's flexible but also stubborn and said that he just refuses to tap to leg locks no matter how much pain he's in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apperz
Yeah I do seem to remember a weird triangle at the very first no-gi worlds. So that would make it 3. Because he got armlocked by Rafa and mounted cross choked by Rodolfo Vieira in an open weight gi match. Also for an MMA tie in I know he lost twice to Jose Aldo at brown belt which is crazy. It makes me want to see way more of Aldo on the mats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Toffolo
http://youtu.be/QeX34Odre84?t=4m40sQuote:
Originally Posted by Tony Toffolo
At that 10 min mark his standing pass and feints were so fast.....awesome
That's it yeah. Sick triangle too. I always like seeing feather weights or smaller do the absolutes. I wish Rafa did as many absolutes as Cobrinha used to do. I get that he doesn't want to get hurt the day before the weight divisions go but I think he could do very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Royce Kim
I don't blame Rafa or the smaller guys for not absolutes, the risk of injury is higher, the chances of winning a high level absolute is slim, usually at least MW or over wins it,the risk is to much for them
They run a business and just keep winning your weight class and compet longer with less injuries
Yup. I'm done with absolutes as well. Little things like a double under pass can crack a rib outta nowhere.
First time ever I was told I was not allowed to compete in an absolute last week (for an upcoming comp I registered for) - I was told lightweight and under excluded... kind of shocked me seeing as BJJ developed for the little guys to tackle the big guys, but I guess it is to protect competitors from themselves.
It would be cool to see IBJJF do a light and heavy absolute. 181 and under, 182 and over.
That way we could salivate at Caio, Lo, Pena, Rafa, etc all going at each other.
That would be amazing. Metamoris should make this happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray
This should absolutely be a thing already. Why isn't this a thing already?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray
60lbs each way for extreme weights. 120 to 180/ 180 to 240, these can be fun. Over 30lbs is pushin it, 60? Not fair.
That's a pretty dope idea sirQuote:
Originally Posted by Gray