From No-Gi to Gi-need advice

Ok, from 2007-2010 I learned JJ under a 10th planet instructor (hopeful). Meaning he was testing under Bravo and Prokopos and some others that would come out during seminars and check his skill to determine if he was qualified to become a 10th planet rep out of our area. So I have no formal BJJ training in a gi. I do have about 2 years of Judo, so I am not completely stumped on Gi, but you get the point.

Now fastforward to now. After I separated from the military, I could not find a no-gi gym. 4 years of speratic rolling with friends/co-workers (I am a cop), but nothing solid; all because I was stubborn and refused to wear a Gi. I finally signed up to a traditional BJJ and they roll mostly GI. During the summer they go no-gi so I am looking forward to that.

Here is my dilemma, I love 10th planet, but will be the first to admit I don't know shit in the grand scheme of JJ. Does this system translate to Gi? I want to try and continue to learn and develop my 10th planet game as best as I can while learning traditional BJJ. I am not fortunate enough to have a 10th planet gym by me anymore and need this website to get me by. I still hate the Gi FYI, but I need something. I would like to keep this simple so here is my game as of now. Been really working my roots, half guard/dog fight/rubber guard, mostly all half guard. Any advice for working those three things in a GI? because I keep getting smashed from them holding and grabbing and collar choking me from every angle.

Sorry for the long post, but I am real excited to be back in the game and want some advice from those that practice what I grew to love.

edit: looking at my avatar pic, I should really change that from blue belt to white belt because I don't deserve that blue as of right now.

Pretty much everything you have learned will work in the gi so its actually easier to go from no gi to gi. I do alot of the system in gi and have success. At the end of the day its jiu jitsu so you can keep focusing on your clinch and over under hooks and not use the gi for grips.

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Originally Posted by imported_scott

Pretty much everything you have learned will work in the gi so its actually easier to go from no gi to gi. I do alot of the system in gi and have success. At the end of the day its jiu jitsu so you can keep focusing on your clinch and over under hooks and not use the gi for grips.

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While there is debate which one it is easier to go to than the other (and I don't really care either way), its true that almost all the 10th Planet system will work in the Gi, in fact, Eddie came up with at least the early stages of most of it while wearing a gi... Just not grabbing it himself. That might be something you may want to try.

And hey, I know Arlington, Texas is a long way away from Beaumont, TX, but consider taking a vacation over here at some point, we love 10th Planet Drop ins :)

Oh, and it makes no sense to downgrade yourself from your blue belt in 10th Planet while you are on a 10th Planet forum, just because that's not what you train right now due to location (if your belt is legit. You were a little fuzzy on that).

Message me at any time with any questions, I look out for my 10th Planet Texas family :)

I'm new to JJ, so this is based mostly on what I've learned on this forum, general observation, and what I'm being taught at my gym which does both gi and nogi competition at the highest level.

There is more to gi than nogi. Everything you learn nogi will work in gi, but there is a bunch of gi stuff you don't know. That's why you're getting choked. You are not aware of, nor defending properly, stuff like the x-choke. X-choke is the go-to shit in a gi. You learn it as a whitebelt and you see guys using it at the highest blackbelt level. But it doesn't exist in nogi.

Sounds like you're a nogi guy at heart. I'd recommend learning all the grips, all the gi defense stuff, learn everything they have to teach, and take gi seriously. Just don't spend tons of time working on spider guard or worm guard or any of that weird gi stuff that uses grips for extended periods of time. Use the grips temporarily.

If you are in a self-defense situation and the guy has a jacket on, are you really going to roll your fingers up in his sleeves, put your feet on his biceps, and play the "you can't pass my guard game" with him? No, that's silly gi stuff. But you might grab his lapel and yank him to remove the distance between you. As soon as you are close enough, BAM clinch him.

You've already seen the biggest problem you're going to have in a gi, which are those lapel grips others put on you. A lapel grip can be super strong, and if the guy knows what he's doing it's only a few short steps away from chocking you. So work that stuff really hard and focus on it like crazy.

You're really just playing a little catch-up, adding gi stuff to your awareness. Once you're more used to having all those extra things going on, you'll be fine. All your nogi moves are going to translate and be useful to you. Just focus on the stuff you don't know for awhile and it'll work itself out!

Also please continue to update us to your progress. As another guy with 10p in my heart, training in a gi gym, I'm extremely interested in other people's experiences in the gi. I know others are in your situation as well.

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Originally Posted by Craig Murray

There is more to gi than nogi.

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Not to start something here, but I personally disagree with this point, especially if you are reffering to IBJJF Gi grappling which has a large percentage of subs and control positions on half the body illegal.

Regardless, both are essentially infinite since no one has ever run out of new stuff to work on in either, so its a mute point, its just WHICH of those things would you rather be learning. That's Just IMHO of course but, I hear the "Gi is just way bigger ect" thing from long time gi guys all the time and then they try my no gi class and have never seen anything I'm showing before...

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

Not to start something here, but I personally disagree with this point, especially if you are reffering to IBJJF

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I was not referring to IBJJF. I'm not a fan of that organization. They are clearly trying to maintain "Jiu Jitsu" as some little sub-set of what's available. It's a racket, it's boring to watch, and it's rules are garbage.

I was really speaking in more general terms about the art of jiu jitsu.

I really didn't mean to start any kind of philosophical debate here. But this isn't the first person I've heard say something like "I've trained a lot of nogi and then went into a gi gym and got choked all night". Clearly there is something to this story.

I was really just trying to help the guy who was getting choked all night because he's never rolled in a gi before.

My point was "There are very basic gi moves that you do not know, so learn them and you'll be fine"

Thanks for the advice guys, I appreciate it. Brian Debes I would love to come down. Please let me know if you ever head up to north Texas. I've only been here a couple of years so I'm still learning the state. Looks like Beaumont is pretty far down there lol 6+ hours. I have met heavy resistance about the 10th planet system at this new gym. Even had the instructor tell me half guard is garbage and not to waste my time. I just smile a nod. I will continue to learn and adapt for what I have fun doing. Glad to hear it will all translate.

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Originally Posted by ErikLavigne

Thanks for the advice guys, I appreciate it. Brian Debes I would love to come down. Please let me know if you ever head up to north Texas. I've only been here a couple of years so I'm still learning the state. Looks like Beaumont is pretty far down there lol 6+ hours. I have met heavy resistance about the 10th planet system at this new gym. Even had the instructor tell me half guard is garbage and not to waste my time. I just smile a nod. I will continue to learn and adapt for what I have fun doing. Glad to hear it will all translate.

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"half guard is garbage"? Not the lockdown, but half guard in general? That is not a common BJJ mindset.... More like some peoples "MMA" mind set or a super, super traditional one... Does your gym compete at all? Because.... grappling competitions have half guard sweeps...a lot...

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

"half guard is garbage"? Not the lockdown, but half guard in general? That is not a common BJJ mindset.... More like some peoples "MMA" mind set or a super, super traditional one... Does your gym compete at all? Because.... grappling competitions have half guard sweeps...a lot...

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Yeah, ever since gordo that sort of thinking has sort of gone away.

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Originally Posted by ErikLavigne

Even had the instructor tell me half guard is garbage and not to waste my time..

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Ugh. Close minded, not good. Any other gyms in your city? Smiling and nodding probably your best bet. But I'd immediately be looking for alternatives, if they are available.

You have met an instructor who has stopped learning. That's a very bad sign for him.

You mentioned earlier that your gym trains nogi half the year. Is your instructor not familiar with Garry Tonon? He hooked in the lockdown several times just last month at Gracie Nationals... Garry is not a 10p guy.

If you're stuck with this guy, that's ok too... you'll still have plenty to learn. Just don't learn his philosophy or mindset while you're there. Stick to learning the techniques that he uses.

A lot of it is just going to take some time man. I went from doing only no-gi for a couple of years to doing both and the gi sucked for a while. I did and still do have a very no-gi'ish game, even in the gi. I don't play as much lockdown and rubber guard as I used to, but they're still great options to play in the gi. the main things you'll run into are more friction which on the plus side may make your lockdown and rubber guard a little tighter, but also possibly harder to get into. You still have to watch your typical counters, but in my experience learning to deal with cross chokes just takes some time.

Especially from your half guard and dog fight situations, you're going to be dealing with a lot of brabo choke (the lapel brabo, not the darce), cross choke with the brabo grip, and and the baseball choke. If you have half guard on their right leg and you feel your left lapel being untucked out of your belt, there's a good chance that someone is going for that brabo/baseball/cross choke series on you.

Darces and guillotines will still be threats, but you'll also need to keep an eye on brabo and loop chokes, which are sort of the gi equivalents of those. From the back you'll have to deal with bow and arrows along with RNCs, and arm-in ezekiels along with the arm triangle. I still have a hard time dealing with collar chokes and it sounds very cliche but not letting deep grips on your collar is most important. So try to hand fight, or if they get a deep grip, get both hands on your opponents wrist and push away while keeping strong posture to break their grips.

One thing that makes the learning curve steep in the gi is that many grips are strong and many aren't. It takes a while to get a feel for what's what. A good rule of thumb is that until you get that feel for what grips are dangerous and which ones aren't, just try to break them all. So if you're passing and they get grips, just try to break every grip you can. You can try to play a game like Rafa Mendes or Leandro Lo. Those guys like to pass without really breaking grips, because they feel it takes too much energy. But at first I would try to break grips. If you're on bottom and they start getting hands in your collars, those grips have got to go. Always.

Good luck man. Give yourself time. It took me a long time. I prefer no-gi but gi can be fun too. Just frame it as a new challenge if you can. The bonus is that once you go back to no-gi things like sliding all of your choke into place will feel so easy.

Geez Craig..

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Geez Craig..

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Was I too strong? :) This is a hotbutton for me I guess, and not just limited to Jiu Jitsu. Being a teacher, of anything, is a sacred responsibility. As a teacher myself I get upset when people who are close minded, rigid, and disciples of orthodoxy pass those ideas onto others. Homophobia, racism, anti-cannabis, "you must train gi", all that garbage is taught by close minded assholes.

Some teachers reach a certain level of skill or knowledge, and then shut down to any new learning. Everything they think is correct, anything else is wrong. Then they spread those ideas and that close mindedness like a virus.

(I've gone back and taken a little of the venom out of my post regarding this instructor... I don't know him and I don't want to over-judge... maybe he really has some valid points about half-guard being worthless)

For an example of the way a true master reacts to new information, watch Eddie's reaction when someone comes in with new techniques... he gets as excited as a schoolgirl, rather than defensive and dismissive.

Full background on my instructor, he owns a TKD gym and is a legit TKD guy, he's been training in JJ for 5-6 years in traditional bjj and is a purple belt in it. His JJ class isn't very big, but at 50 a month for JJ 3-4 times a week I couldn't pass it up to knock the rust off. We have a Machado gym and an Alverez gym near by but the price is closer to 200 a month. So, I'll stay here to sharpen up, learn some gi basics and then maybe upgrade. The thing I like the most is there after school program for my little girl (5 yo), she loves it and there's other girls in it her age. That alone is hard to find. I've rolled with the instructor, he's good. He's just not progressive thinking. He still trains under his bjj instructor and he said he'll stay until he earns a black belt, but until then he won't charge more for JJ because he's only a purple. But any time he's seen my half guard game, he's always got a comment about breaking that habit

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Originally Posted by Craig Murray

Some teachers reach a certain level of skill or knowledge, and then shut down to any new learning. Everything they think is correct, anything else is wrong. Then they spread those ideas and that close mindedness like a virus.

(I've gone back and taken a little of the venom out of my post regarding this instructor... I don't know him and I don't want to over-judge... maybe he really has some valid points about half-guard being worthless)

For an example of the way a true master reacts to new information, watch Eddie's reaction when someone comes in with new techniques... he gets as excited as a schoolgirl, rather than defensive and dismissive.

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I agree about closed-mindedness. I think it's important (just playing devil's advocate) to keep in mind that the instructor in question is only a purple belt. As a purple belt I know for a fact that I didn't show shit as a white or blue belt, and I'm sure as a brown and a black I'll feel the same way about purple. Someone that's teaching at purple is definitely competent, and some purple belts are very good instructors. others are awful. But what they have in common is that neither is really a true master of the art, and I've had a lot of fellow purples and even browns or blacks throw 2 cents in that is definitely wrong, or at the very least easily debatable. So hopefully Erik Lavigne's coach will continue to grow and advance and become a little more open minded.

A big thing I've noticed as someone that travels a lot and tries to train everywhere I visit is that gi, no-gi, both, you name it: most people teach things that work for them, and don't teach what doesn't. Your coach Lovato Jr. is a great example of someone that shows things not in their game. A lot of people can't do that even if they try. Not only does it take being open minded, but it takes a special breed to be able to effectively teach techniques that they aren't super familiar with. It's much easier especially as a purple belt unfamiliar with the lockdown to just tell someone not to do it. I'm not saying that's the right way to go about things, but it's very common.

Budo Jake was talking about how Marcelo Garcia and Rafa Mendes are two of the best no-gi guys ever and yet they have very different beliefs about some of the same concepts, and they usually teach what they prefer, and not the other side of the coin. So this extends all the way to the greatest athletes and coaches in jiu-jitsu. There's a difference, and these guys aren't closed-minded, but they have very strong opinions on what's best. While a lot of their beliefs are similar, there are quite a few that differ as well.

Mike Nall!

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

It's much easier especially as a purple belt unfamiliar with the lockdown to just tell someone not to do it. .

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Yeah, you're making a lot of sense Mike. And I realize that a purple belt (I didn't know this when I first posted) the ability to teach isn't going to be higher than the guy's own personal skill level. You're probably right to cut him slack. However...

You can say "that is garbage, it doesn't work, stop doing it". Or you can say "I'm only a purple belt, it's not part of my game, so I might not be qualified to correct your technique or guide you in it's use. But here is all the stuff I am confident with that I can show you".

Which attitude do you want from your purple belt instructor?

One thing that seems to be often lost in JJ is that a great competitor does not necessarily make a great teacher. JJ is different than most martial arts in that live sparring and "prove it" are central to the way it's taught almost everywhere. That's a HUGE advantage for the art in my opinion, and in many ways sets JJ above the other arts in the way it's taught. But it does lead to the idea that because a guy can tap everyone in the room, that he's the best guy to teach.

Great competitors can often make terrible teachers. Lots of reasons, sometimes they don't even fully understand what they are doing in an analytic sense so they have a hard time conveying it. Sometimes they are just bad communicators. Sometimes they have closed minds and think that what works for them is universal and should be used by everyone. Sometimes they don't actually care about teaching but love being "the authority".

If you want to judge the quality of a teacher, judge their students, not their own performance.

When I chose to train at Lovato's instead of the other gyms in my city, his list of personal competition accomplishments was low on my list of reasons. The culture he's cultivated at his gym was more important, his open-minded approach to the art was more important, his stress on the idea that "JJ is different for everyone and you must develop a game that works for you" was more important. The fact that he's trained a complete monster in Rader was more important. It's a professional organization run in a very professional way, where the ascension of his students is the paramount goal. The fact that he's an elite competitor is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

Well I'm glad I have Brian Debes to bounce some stuff off of now, he's at least in the same state. Thanks brian

Erik: if this instructor is tapping you, then clearly there is stuff you can learn there :) And maybe at some point in the future you can tap him with a Vaporizer and open his mind a little. :)

Or, you could just remember to be a G in a Gi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBYmZsUjSFE

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I've dropped in at a couple gi gyms and the black belt instructors were surprisingly open minded involving rubber guard and lockdown even though they've never tried it. An experienced grappler won't just dismiss something because it's not their style. Jiu Jitsu is one of those "the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know" deals

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Originally Posted by hespectnogi

I've dropped in at a couple gi gyms and the black belt instructors were surprisingly open minded involving rubber guard and lockdown even though they've never tried it. An experienced grappler won't just dismiss something because it's not their style. Jiu Jitsu is one of those "the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know" deals

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yep. good post

How's it going, bro?I live in San Angelo, Tx.about 3 1/2 hours away from you.I travel up to the Dallas area allot for totournaments.We have a decent group of guys who train on a regular basis.We aren't legit yet but working hard on getting recognized as a 10th planet.If you're ever in the area you're more than welcome to stop by and jump in for some rolling.

Craig, I absolutely agree. I am open to learning from anyone. I am very happy to be getting a different perspective with Gi-game. However, knowing that this guy knows more than me and is still practicing trying to belt up, I find it odd he would dismiss the halfguard game. I have seen it work, but then again, I am so foreign to the Gi-game that I thought maybe halfguard doesnt work. Glad you guys have been able to clear that up. I wont abandon what I know and I am excited to see what the Gi will teach me. The only thing I hate right now is my stamina for rolling is horrible, 10-15 minutes in I am spent and we typically roll 40-45 minutes. Only thing I can do is keep trying to hit those halfguard sweeps and prove consistency is the key.

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Originally Posted by Enrique "Kiko"

Or, you could just remember to be a G in a Gi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBYmZsUjSFE

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

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wth was that...smh

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Originally Posted by DavidBaut

How's it going, bro?I live in San Angelo, Tx.about 3 1/2 hours away from you.I travel up to the Dallas area allot for totournaments.We have a decent group of guys who train on a regular basis.We aren't legit yet but working hard on getting recognized as a 10th planet.If you're ever in the area you're more than welcome to stop by and jump in for some rolling.

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Just learned how to use the quote feature, lol. Thanks brother. Ive been finding that people are pretty close. Gainsville seems to be the closest one. If I get in some tournaments or something in your area, I will for sure stop by. I just got back on 10THP website so I have been going ape shit watching all the new stuff. When I got out, Prison guard was a new concept and Denny I think was going to put on a seminar at our gym with it. But I got stationed in Michigan and missed out on the seminar :( Ive been trying to find some instructionals on that, like a warm up drill because I get in that position quite a bit. Very pumped to be back in, probably watching a bit too much overloading my brain.

To the Op. My current school does legitimately Zero no gi at the moment. I have never trained at 10th Planet(just fyi though I'd like too) I wish we had some no gi going on but I'm just glad that I can do BJJ. To me it's not a mater of Gi or No Gi its just BJJ and I'll train how ever I can. Gi Training even if you hate it beats not training at all.

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Originally Posted by Orion

To the Op. My current school does legitimately Zero no gi at the moment. I have never trained at 10th Planet(just fyi though I'd like too) I wish we had some no gi going on but I'm just glad that I can do BJJ. To me it's not a mater of Gi or No Gi its just BJJ and I'll train how ever I can. Gi Training even if you hate it beats not training at all.

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Took me a while to realize this as well. Glad I finally broke down and got back in. Having a great time

Initially, I subscribed to the theory that 'any jiu jitsu is good jiu jitsu.' This still holds mainly true. It doesn't matter where you acquire that mat time, so much as you get it. Gi, no gi, a lot of it is identical in regards to the body movements and reflexes. The whole gripping thing is blown way out of proportion. If you're an expert grappler, gi or no gi, you'll have the natural propensity and knowledge to understand where you'd need to make modifications when necessary if you're practicing the other art. Doing gi will not make you worse at no gi. It will undoubtedly make you a stronger grappler, and more wise to concepts such as base, elbow positioning, leverage, and certain submissions that cross the barriers.

Now to say that every instructor will be who you'd ultimately want to align with is another story entirely. I've trained with instructors that I'm not particularly fond of, knowing that it's not a long term thing and understanding that they may still possibly have some knowledge to offer. But gone are the days where there's no other source of knowledge than your instructor. Like you said, you're using this website to get by. Seeing techniques over and over and over and executing them over and over and over is more important than being comfortable in your garb, in my humble opinion. It's making those on-the-fly adjustments that require the reflexes of an experienced practitioner. If I may say with respect; Eddie received his black belt from a hardcore gi practitioner and even himself trained 11 years in the gi, where he undoubtedly developed a lot of the reflexes he utilizes today. So if I were left with the choice to either not grapple or to train mainly gi, I'd choose gi 100% of the time. Not because it's better or worse in anyway than no-gi, but because at least I'm learning the art of jiu jitsu.

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Originally Posted by ErikLavigne

During the summer they go no-gi so I am looking forward to that.

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Who waits til the summer to go no-gi? Lame

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

Initially, I subscribed to the theory that 'any jiu jitsu is good jiu jitsu.' This still holds mainly true. It doesn't matter where you acquire that mat time, so much as you get it. Gi, no gi, a lot of it is identical in regards to the body movements and reflexes. The whole gripping thing is blown way out of proportion. If you're an expert grappler, gi or no gi, you'll have the natural propensity and knowledge to understand where you'd need to make modifications when necessary if you're practicing the other art. Doing gi will not make you worse at no gi. It will undoubtedly make you a stronger grappler, and more wise to concepts such as base, elbow positioning, leverage, and certain submissions that cross the barriers.

Now to say that every instructor will be who you'd ultimately want to align with is another story entirely. I've trained with instructors that I'm not particularly fond of, knowing that it's not a long term thing and understanding that they may still possibly have some knowledge to offer. But gone are the days where there's no other source of knowledge than your instructor. Like you said, you're using this website to get by. Seeing techniques over and over and over and executing them over and over and over is more important than being comfortable in your garb, in my humble opinion. It's making those on-the-fly adjustments that require the reflexes of an experienced practitioner. If I may say with respect; Eddie received his black belt from a hardcore gi practitioner and even himself trained 11 years in the gi, where he undoubtedly developed a lot of the reflexes he utilizes today. So if I were left with the choice to either not grapple or to train mainly gi, I'd choose gi 100% of the time. Not because it's better or worse in anyway than no-gi, but because at least I'm learning the art of jiu jitsu.

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Very good insight and I agree. This instructor for this school is a TKD primarily and the BJJ is a side thing after all the TKD is done. He is a legit purple belt, I've rolled with him and watched him, I trust his abilities. I am glad he is humble enough to acknowledge he is not a black belt and has not right to charge more than what he does (50 bucks a month with 5 days of rolling). He has shown some half guard knowledge but I believe its the old style of half guard. His mind set on half guard is that it is not a primary choice, its a last resort if grabbing full guard fails or they break full guard and are beginning to pass. He has told me that he would try to "break my habbit" of pulling or trying to pull half guard. He thinks he is showing me how useless it is when he smashes all my attempts to obtain it. I think if I stick with it and sharpen up my skills, it will come. Hopefully by that time I will have moved on to a different school. Thanks for the reply

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

Who waits til the summer to go no-gi? Lame

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exactly!

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Originally Posted by ErikLavigne

Just learned how to use the quote feature, lol. Thanks brother. Ive been finding that people are pretty close. Gainsville seems to be the closest one. If I get in some tournaments or something in your area, I will for sure stop by. I just got back on 10THP website so I have been going ape shit watching all the new stuff. When I got out, Prison guard was a new concept and Denny I think was going to put on a seminar at our gym with it. But I got stationed in Michigan and missed out on the seminar :( Ive been trying to find some instructionals on that, like a warm up drill because I get in that position quite a bit. Very pumped to be back in, probably watching a bit too much overloading my brain.

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You're welcome at Gainesville anytime brotha, nice chatting with you earlier:-)