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I'm looking to get good at butterfly guard and closed guard as well as inverted guard. I know quite a few submissions and positions from those areas, but I'm wondering what is a must. What must I train everyday to achieve a great guard game so I can focus on other stuff like shopping while I play BJJ.
Best piece of advice I can give off the top of my head is to always engage your feet. If you're in an open guard situation and he's trying to pass you or smash you, think about having your feet on the hips, torso, arms, or ideally, having your insteps underneath his legs, as is customary for the butterfly guard. There is incredible value in 'resetting' your feet. Even if they've been taken out of the picture, don't be afraid to reestablish points of contact. This can often times be a mental battle and can be extremely frustrating for the guard passer. I've found more and more that guys are passing by shoving my legs underneath their legs and this creates opportunities to bring my knees closer to my chin and granting access for my insteps to be inserted onto their thighs , ergo a butterfly guard. Check out the 'Advanced Rubber Guard' book by Eddie or 'Open Guard Translated' on Youtube to really go indepth. But for sure closed guard and butterfly guard are the two essential guards for no-gi, imo. Especially in terms of preventing and not getting exposed for footlocks. Inverted guard is probably better more as a recovery mechanism than anything, but I'd be weary of building a whole game around there unless your body moves like Gumby. But all these positions are connected.
Seriously though, train in the gi also. Certain hip movements will really only developed from the gi. All the best guard guys keenan, miyaos, Mendes, langhi, etc are gi guys. You can still enjoy the system and the gi
+1 on training in the gi only because of this bleacherreport story I read this morning. Just the part copy-pasted. Good article overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackienystrom
There are fair assessments of his style, and one of them comes from Eddie’s own instructor Jean Jacques Machado. First it must be said that Machado is still good friends with Bravo, loves training at 10th Planet and loves that his student isn't afraid to rock the boat.
That said, Machado thinks the gi serves an important purpose in training, namely it slows down the grappling, giving students time to think and forces them to learn techniques. Machado says that he is always able to tell which of Bravo’s students have trained in gi jiu-jitsu when rolling because he is able to blow through the defenses of the students who never put on the gi. Guard passing happens so quickly in no gi it’s hard to build the fundamentals of guard retention at the speed, so it takes longer to develop training just without the gi.
Whole article: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6...ie-bravo-story
This will not be a popular opinion, but the best way to develop your guard is in the gi, you can not simulate the grip gi battle and the amount of hip movement, leg dexterity, etc... it takes to defend your guard against really good passers
Trying to defend someone grabbing your pants, torrendo, leg dragging you to death is rough, the ability to pin your legs, hips, etc...you can not recreate that in the gi, the best passers will be developed in the gi also
That's my biggest thing I see from training gi and no gi, it's the guard passing/guard retention battle, it just can't be matched IMO
My overall guard game completely changed for the better training in the gi, and I was a No Gi forever
You can not recreate that No Gi I mean, can't edit
The best piece to improve your [insert guard here]-guard is to start all your rolling in training in that guard. You're probably gonna get subbed or passed a lot, but only then will you learn what to do and not to do.
Let's say you started in inverted guard and you guys scramble and you reface your opponent. Even though it's still the middle of the round, once again go inverted.
For any technique or guard you want to improve upon, cut to the chase and put yourself in that position. You'll learn your escapes well in this way.
Thanks for sharing that article! What an interesting quote.
I find myself torn as to whether the ability to retain a guard for a long time (but ultimately getting passed) is an excellent thing or whether making the best of the flow and finding a way to make space and escape is better. Got a little white belt thinking. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
So.... once again I'm going to comment on the no-gi vs gi thing. The best way to get good at a thing is do that thing. That's hard wired into our DNA. Wanna get good at a certain guard? Do that guard. There can be carry over from other things for sure (ex. working your butterfly guard could improve your x-guard but not as much as working x-guard would. The reason you work butterfly guard is to get good at butterfly guard. Then maybe you can use it to set up your X-guard, but as far as being in X-guard and working from there, the fastest improvement will always be to work from there). Same applies to the gi.
As far as this garbage about "you must (insert claim)", I'll just say that NOT training in the gi has been the edge that I have used to achieve my competitive success and I have almost never gotten my guard passed in competition, not even by good black belt...
There has also been several gi black belts I've watched get repeatedly schooled by my blue belts in the last few months, and oddly enough, its usually their guard (and leg lock defense) that is the most lacking.
Keep training my friend, you'll gravitate to certain guards naturally, don't stress to much about "you must do this or that" just enjoy the journey my friend :)
If you see it as a training tool it makes more sense, people use training tools all the time is sports, weighted vests, runners with parachutes, resistance bands, whatever
Of course you can get a good guard just training No Gi, but IMO, from what other people have said and my own personal experience, you develop a better guard faster with the Gi, it doesn't mean you always need to train Gi
It means that you can use it as a tool, like I said, you can't simulate the passing/retention game in No Gi, it's not really possible
but of course do what you want to do, JJM seems like a good source of information on this subject though
Thanks for the responses. I forgot I posted this.
Liquid Rob,
I think that you do have a perspective on gi training that should be considered but the implications of what you advance seem to me to be that:
1. The training methodology of 10th Planet JJ is flawed, incomplete or not as efficient as it could be by avoiding use of the gi as a training tool.
2. Eddie can either not see this or can and is wilfully refusing to adopt use of the gi for ideological reasons to the detriment of his students.
3. Other no gi instructors are also failing to appreciate the benefits of the gi and therefore arguably failing their students whose guard game -if nothing else- would be improved by use of the gi.
I tend to be of the view- like Brian I think- that it is better to train under the conditions that you will meet and to perfect exactly the same movements you will actually employ which of course is hard enough.
I personally do not think that my guard game is any better for having started in the gi although I appreciate that your view is different.
In so far as there may be a benefit to your guard game my suspicion is that this may simply be the result of having to spend a lot more time in the position due to the gi restricting movement rather than the use of the gi itself.
I suppose that it is for those more advanced and who have instructed to pronounce upon the methodology you have advanced from their experince of teaching and perhaps for Eddie to comment on the remarks of JJM.
You're a gangster, Brian Debes. I feel that this is very accurateQuote:
Originally Posted by Brian Debes
I'm going to quote Eddie. Just this once. It may be cliche, but it's by far the most profound statement I've ever heard'em say, and I consider myself the same. He said this directly to Rickson Gracie:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterm
I'm jiu jitsu pureblood.
Now. If he considers himself as such, I would imagine that his thinking would come from the fact that he came from JJM, an avid gi practitioner. The gi is invariably traced back to the lineage, of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Japanese Jiu Jitsu. The 10th planet system has extended the timeline, without a doubt. Anyone coming out of the tenth planet system that doesn't train gi is still part of the lineage. It just happens to be a different branch from the same tree trunk. Is it pure blood? Sure. Or half-blood. Alright, three-quarter blood. That's as far as I'll take it. Whatever. It's all silly.
There would need to be non-biased, laboratory studies of gi guards and no-gi guards, side-by-side comparisons, competition results of big time gi guys vs. big time no-gi guys to accurately determine which guard would be better to train. Doesn't it make sense that you 'get good at what you do'? That whatever guard you wish to obtain need only be drilled constantly for it to happen? Or a fair point being made that gi presents several different problems and thus overcompensates in improving your guard? On that token, look at the certifiable proof that we're witnessing of break dancers coming in and destroying jiu jitsu heads cuz of their overcompensation for good body control. Jiu jitsu is nothing to them. An argument can be made that a no-gi guard recovery is nothing to a guy used to having his knee pant smashed and his lapels pinned. A clean granby roll is a welcome relief.
All food for thought. But no-gi guys, remember. Talking crap about the gi is talking crap about your ancestors.:) And strictly gi guys that talk crap, I mean think of how lame it'd be if your grandparents or parents talked crap about you. That's basically all this is. Politics. But at the end of the day, there is no substitute for the most precious asset we have on this Earth, and that is time. Mat time. No substitute. People should be allies, w/ no enemies. Gi to no-gi. Switzerland of jiu-jitsu. oss
Your perspective is spot on. Maybe someday a guy who's well respected enough by BOTH the gi and no gi communities (c'mon Marcelo!) to get them receptive to the idea that it's just ALL jiu jitsu and it's all related and can/will/has to evolve whether it's from the main tree, new branch, a branch branching off a branch, a new sapling?! You get the point. It'll happen eventually. Maybe some 10th Planet superstar will marry an affluent Gracie down the road and make 10th Planet/Gracie ultra-babies? Who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
Im down with that Arman. And honestly the way we develop skill gi to no gi probably varies from individual to individual. I have no doubt that the gi has helped some practicioners develop no gi movement. But at the same time you could grasp and understand concepts in a completely different way training just no gi and be just as effective. I personally just started cross training in the gi once or twice a week (mostly just for a new challenge and to have more matches at tournaments, its also a lot of fun and different I'll admit) and I havent noticed any benefit YET. But I'm sure it takes a lot of time so I'm not discounting it. It all comes down to what helps you understand your own body movements
IMO, to be a complete grappler you should train both Gi and No Gi, but you don't have to of course, goes the same for Gi only guys
They both have strengths and weaknesses, and benefits from training both that can't be replicated when strictly doing one or the other. Fo Gi bjj the biggest thing I see is the guard passing/guard retention battle. It just makes sense that you will have a better guard training Gi mostly against quality passers who are great at gripping, controlling, pinning your legs, hips, etc...
Just look at it this way, what's harder to retain your guard from? Someone grabbing a handful or 2 of your pants when leg dragging you or just grabbing your ankle? The amount of leg dexterity, hip movement, inverting or whatever will be so much more than No Gi, it really can't be argued
The problem with No Gi is you don't get the amount of time to battle like that from thes equipment positions, you don't have as great of a battle fighting off someone stabilizing a pass who has you Gi, it gets ingrained in you how to react and fight off the passes, its not the same battle No Gi
Once the Gi comes off you will notice how much easier it is to fight off passes, create spaces, roll, invert, etc...like I said, it's a tool
On the flip side, I can list the benefits of No Gi training compared to Gi training, but this was a guard thread, it goes both ways
Do you find that not being used to the slipperiness of no gi a hard thing to adapt to for mostly gi guys? One thing I noticed is my armbars are much tighter in the gi because of the friction and therefore harder to slip out of. But when the gi comes off, the squeeze and finish has to be a lot tighter. As far as defending that same arm bar goes, if you're used to having to fight your way out of it with the added friction, I think you definitely would be more able to defend a no gi armbar. So I do think there is some merit to the defense theory. I'm all ears, even though I've heard the debate a million times I'm interested on everyone's take to it from person to personQuote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
In mat time we trust
I'm too newbie to have any direct opinion, but this really makes sense to me and is something I've always thought when people discuss this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterm
In fact I have always said that if I was going to do MMA, I would train Jiu Jitsu exclusively in MMA gloves. Train under the conditions you will meet... That makes a lot of sense to me. But does anyone actually do this? Probably not many. Most guys train for MMA in a gi with bare hands... crazy if you ask me, but then what do I know, this is just intellectual speculation on my part.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Debes
Bottom line, if you want your no-gi guard to be more effective in no-gi, train no-gi. If you want your gi guard to be more effective in the gi, train in the gi.
I absolutely agree. I enjoy no gi much more and I prefer to train it these days. The specific battle of guard retention vs guard pass is most highly contested in the gi, and that's where you see it play out at the highest level. It's actually pretty rare in no gi to see clean guard passes, and what I mean by that isn;t like a knee cut into an armbar, or a leg drag into an arm triangle or to the back. I just mean straight up a clean guard pass. JT Torres is one of the best at it, but it's just much more rare in high level no gi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
Being able to grip the belt and the pants allows for so many different passing options that just aren't really there in the gi, or at least aren't there in as much detail. Unless you just wanted to let someone grab your board shorts, it's just going to be very hard to develop your open guard retention as well as you could against someone that's rally putting the heat on you by trying to pass your guard by gripping your clothing.
Fantastic resource for your open guard retention. probably the best I've ever seen. Plus there is a lot of wrestling stuff on there blended with jiu-jitsu that frankly isn't being taught anywhere else as far as I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan
Arman- I do not think that reference to lineage really addresses the significance of Eddie discarding the gi as a training tool.
However I think that you do properly sum up the issue in your post and we have essentially a specificity debate which is "train as you would fight" or as I think Brian and Zog have put it, improve your no gi guard by training your guard no gi v train your guard in a non specific manner to improve your guard specific performance.
My own view is:
1. I cannot think of an example in sport where specific movement patterns are not trained in the way that they are performed.
Wrestling may or may not be a good analogy but it has never sought to enhance technique/movement patterns by altering
the precise performance of those movement patterns by restrictive clothing.
2. I have not personally found Liquid Rob's assertion that "Once the Gi comes off you will notice how much easier it is to fight
off passes, create spaces, roll, invert, etc." to be true so while I will concede that some may derive this benefit this cannot
be asserted in absolute terms.
It does not appear that those of you who do consider that the gi is a useful training tool are prepared to address the implied criticism that 10th Planet training methodology is flawed or that Eddie is blind to the use of the gi as a training tool.
To my understanding, the significance of Eddie discarding the gi as a training tool is simple and one-fold. The gi is not the same fighting stance as MMA, and 10p was created as a way to improve the jiu jitsu that was having success in MMA competition. I referred to his lineage simply as a way to indicate that he comes from the gi, whether or not he endorses it to his students. That much will never change. In my eyes, it's justified for him to make the choice to drop the gi given that he's done his time in the gi and learned enough principles from it to understand it's advantages and it's limitations. I can only speak for myself, but I buy into 10p knowing full well that it does not address gi-specific jiu jitsu. If that's to my detriment, then I'll look at it in the same vein as how other schools don't teach 10p specific techniques. No one knows/teaches everything, hence why I'm of the mind to train as much as possible, at as many places as possible, with as many people as possible. Speaking to some guys who've been training for a long time, they told me that their improvement in no-gi came a lot of time from gi, that ultimately, it was consistent mat time, and lots of it, that made them better more than anything. That's all I was trying to say.
I love how none of these literally answer my question. Keep up the good work :o
Want the secret to build an impeccable guard game? Take it from Kurt; he knows way more than me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTectonicFusion
Attachment 3268
^ good night IRENE!
Reguardless why he left the gi. He has proven himself and his system on the mats. Twice... against a legend who trains in the gi.
What are you talking about? LolQuote:
Originally Posted by bystander
He's talking about Eddie v Royler... As if those two matches with those two particular people puts to rest this debate... sadly not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
It was a pretty silly subject for a thread though. As if someone was going to do a 10 page essay on how to play an "impeccable guard game". The best answers have been "train". But of course some can't resist the urge to explain how training in the gi makes your guard game better... and once that happens, it's on.
Umm, who is taking shots at Eddie? Eddie is great, stop with the hero worship, we are talking about improving your guard game and the differences between Gi and No Gi training
Fyi, I received my purple belt from Eddie
Original post. I would suggest wearing just your belt and tie up your hands for EVERY roll for 1 year. At the end of one year, let me know how good your guard game is when you finally roll using your hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTectonicFusion