Just a general question here but if a black belt is legit rolling with his/her students (like they should be) how often are they actually getting tapped or at least put in serious trouble?
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Just a general question here but if a black belt is legit rolling with his/her students (like they should be) how often are they actually getting tapped or at least put in serious trouble?
I've been watching MG in Action a lot lately and I've been noticing Marcelo just lets his students attack and a fair number of good purple or browns have put him deep enough in a hole that he's forced to tap. In no way do I believe this is truly indicative of who'd win if they were playing for keeps, however. It just seems to me that it's a testament to evaluating how some higher belts are progressing, that they have the ability to put pressure on a guy for a sub. Experiencing and feeling that type of pressure could just be a way of an instructor observing how dangerous some of his/her students are getting. To be fair, this is all my general observation and perspective. I'd be curious as to what a black belt with students would say.
If a black belt doesn't happen to know a new move, they can get tapped by it. I saw a really good black belt get tapped by a white belt using the JNT. He asked what that move was and how to do it. He didn't get tapped by it the rest of that open mat session. Also how a BB rolls with a lower belt to train is very different than how they'd roll in a high level competition. I'd think nothing of it.
A BB I train with says he lets students sub him on purpose if they earn the position and get a legit sub attempt. He'll defend correctly, but with like 10% power so that the people learning the subs/sweeps get a feel of resistance. Think of how it is with weight training and working with progressively higher weights/more intense routines. I'm thinking one way of teaching is to make the resistances harder as the student progresses. My coach uses about 0% strength on me, 25% of his speed, and 100% technique, with mini pauses between his transitions to give me a chance to create space or establish controls, but I've never even come close to a sub attempt on him...yet. =DQuote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
Obviously im not a BB, but i've been teaching consistently for over two years now, and on and off for about 4, so I have guys who are primarily my students. I've seen them go from knowing nothing to improving on their jiu jitsu journey. So compared to them, I'm a BB, but they do catch me every so often. It's usually with a leg lock, but not always. I take it as a compliment.
There are different levels of rolling, and yes, I have let students tap me on purpose.
I have tapped black belt/brown belt practitioners before, but I take it with a grain of salt. It feels good, but who knows if he has just going easy on me. And if they weren't, that doesn't mean they are not a BAMF's.
Belts, who taps who, those things are fun, but they are not the most important thing.
Competition is different.
In house learning with students is about guiding them in a direction to make them comfortable in uncomfortable situations as your students growth is far superior.
Just my opinion on the situ.
I was going to reply with the exact same example. Marcelo seems to put himself in a position where the opponent has a 70% / 30% advantage and then Marcelo works to get out of it and into an advantageous position. Once in a good position he looks to attack and get a sub then at the reset he will sometimes do the above, sometimes not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
Again, as the above says, Marcelo doesn't fight once a position is put on: he just taps. I guess that in his mind if a purple/brown belt gets him into a bad position that is the problem he needs to fix, not the defence of the actual sub. Rafael Mendes, for example, wouldn't be letting you get out of an anaconda choke, so whether you can get out or not against a lower level competitor is meaningless.
So, essentially, I guess what Marcelo is doing when rolling with students is looking to practice the transitional game and test that of his students. Whether you can hold on against an armbar being cranked or whether you have the willingness to break a training partner's arm during sparring doesn't matter to him.
At a certain point, people get good enough that you can't let them into certain dead zones, or else you're just asking for it. I saw a brown belt get Marcelo into jiu claw and create an angle and get the tap on Marcelo's arm. Marcelo was probably defending 2-3%. The guy was going 100% and was pretty sharp, and had clearly drilled the technique thoroughly. Obviously with all his accomplishments, Marcelo has nothing to prove. This student probably knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Marcelo could waste him if he tried. Clearly not every black belt is a Marcelo or a Rafa or whomever. There are different levels, but also keep in mind that a black belt would not learn as much if they were always intent on imposing their will. They'd probably go on defense 0-.0001% of the time against their students for real if they always went balls out all day every day. But allowing themselves to get mounted or side mounted or have their back taken provides a value that they wouldn't have if they had an ego in their training. Letting go of the ego completely, in my mind, is a textbook trait of a black belt. There's a lot to learn from rolling with them, but unfortunately (and I'm slightly guilty of this) the intensity that a student comes in with could take away from feeling the movements of a guy with much more mat time than you. Athleticism, age, strength, and things of that nature that aren't exactly technique related can all come into play. Black belts are humans. They have good and bad days. They got their black belts because at certain points, in certain rolls, they tapped when they probably could have kept fighting. They stayed consistent and hedged against injury to fight another day. They're black belts for a reason.
I'd take this with a grain of salt. I was a 2 stripe white belt and I caught a third-degree black belt in a cross-choke setup I had learned from the guard. It was at that moment that I realized I had a gift and decided to sign up for the Absolute Worlds. Unfortunately, they said I hadn't completed the prerequisite time at white belt yet, nor had I completed any time at blue, purple, or brown. I told them that even BJ Penn wasn't catching black belts with cross-chokes from the guard with only 3 months of training. The IBJJF evidently has its own agenda and now I'm stuck behind a mile of bureaucratic red tape. Or it coulda been that he was just observing and letting me attack. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Enrique "Kiko"
If the blackbelt is trying to teach the people he's rolling with, he should be tapping regularly. The blackbelt is supposed to be guiding the lower belt to use correct technique. When correct technique is applied, the result is supposed to be an advancement in position or a submission.
If you see a blackbelt who never gets tapped by lower belts, that blackbelt is not a very good teacher. He might be a badass jiujitsu practitioner, but he's not a teacher.
That's my take anyway.
I love when my guys catch with a technique that I taught them. It makes me feel like I'm doing my job properly.
YES! I rarely "let" people tap me, but I often choose to tap to students using good technique. I think one role of the instructor is to provide students a super intelligent grappling dummy to provide problems with the body and not just words. If I let a student put me in spiderweb and his technique is clean he should get a sub. I present him with problems, but smashing him every time doesn't teach much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Passini
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill Schwartz
exactly!
A question I have is how often are red or coral belts getting tapped? Is there any documented proof on YouTube or otherwise of a grandmaster getting caught in a twister? That would blow my frickin mind :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Boor
All great responses. I was definitely referring to actually technically tapping a blackbeltch and not so much using strength, size, or athleticism.
If a black belt isnt getting tapped, he's/she's either not trying new things or he/she has too big of an ego which should have been crushed out long ago.
It's a valid question and one that I'm curious of as well, though the answer in itself would be contradictory to the spirit of it it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Boor
Tapping is just part of training and means nothing. Had a black belt once tell me when he was a blue he tapped a BB. Doesn't mean he was a BB. Now that he is a BB he has been tapped by a blue. Doesn't mean he is not a BB now.
A red belt is at least 67 years old. His joints are probably in a used state after 58 years of training. His fitness isn't as good either because in theory his heartrate doesn't get over 153. A younger, heavier, faster and fitter blue belt could wear down an old guy and tap him out before the end of the round. This doesn't mean that technically the red belt is not excellent, it just means he knows his joints, physical limits and is taking it easy so he can come back and train the next day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
In any case, I'd try my luck with Eddie Bravo but I'd respectfully not submit a Grand Master(even if I could).
After you roll it's Highlander rules, you tap someone higher ranked you get there belt
That's how I got my brown
I was wondering how you got to brown so fast! Haha, kidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
I politely disagree. I don't think a black belt instructor is obligated to tap just because you used proper technique. He could also use proper technique to escape or negate your proper technique and still provide you with the very valuable lesson that proper technique does not guarantee a tap. That someone with better technique will still shut you down. I appreciate that my instructors dont' give me freebie taps. They'll give me positive feedback that I'm improving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
I don't want sympathy taps. I don't want charity taps. I don't want freebie taps. If I get a tap, it's because I got the better of you, not because you gave me an "A" on my pop quiz.
i've never seen my professor get tapped but when i or others roll with him he lets us win postion and put in to effect the techniques he teaches and corrects us and lets us know if we expose our selfs.he also catches us in chokes and holds but doesnt crank he gives the lower belts a chance to escape.of course he always gives the purples and brown a way harder time but its always like rolling with Yoda haha.
Agreed. I never hold anything back when teaching, in fact I often show my A-game and how to counter it. Has nothing to do with whats being taught and more to do with the actual skill of the teacher.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
I don't give charity taps, I allow them the opportunity, but whether or not they get the tap depends on if they can seal the deal vs. my ability to escape.
The only time I give charity taps is if we are problem solving a specific area they are working on and we are rolling and I keep allowing them to get it. This is usually with a fighter or competitor the last week or two prior to an event.
Other than that you gotta earn that shit.
Word
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris herzog
Let's do a thought experiment to see if this pans out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Let's say you have a whitebelt that comes to you. He's 150lb, 5'9", no athletic ability. And he is going to train exclusively with you. Maybe he's really rich and famous, maybe the population of the Earth has been reduced, maybe it's a new school and he's your first student, does'nt matter. Create any hypothetical you want to, this white belt is going to train exclusively with you.
So you start teaching him the basics, including basic submissions. And then you roll with him. Of course he's a whitebelt, so he's not very good at anything you teach him.
Now I'm guessing that, based on your response, you never tap to white belts or blue belts. Probably not often to purple belts either. So when do your students actually start to "earn that shit" and actually tap you? Brown belt?
So do you really expect to be able to train a white belt up to brown belt over years without them actually tapping you a single time? And you believe this is the best way to help them develop their technique?
That seems a little ridiculous to me, that they would go years without ever actually tapping someone. That they could actually achive a brownbelt without ever tapping someone. Remember, they only train with you.
My feeling is that would be a VERY slow way for a whitebelt to advance.
People go years without ever tapping there instructor all the time, or never tap them at all
BJJ is not just about tapping someone out
Yes in schools where they also roll with lower belts. In this hypothetical they train exclusively with Mr Herzog (or whomever their blackbelt instructor is).Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
Also I know that bjj is not about "tapping someone out". I tried to make it clear that I'm talking about an instructor developing his students technique in the fastest and most efficient way possible.
First of all, who cares?
Some guys don't believe in "cheap taps", there are many many ways to correct and teach technique without giving away free subs, positional sparring, situational training,,starting from the sub position, etc...
I am not big on the 1on1 Private training only guy, everyone should get into the group training at some point to test themselves out
Can't edit, don't know why I typed "who cares" First, lol, didn't make sense with the rest of the post
So these don't count as taps? Well then perhaps I misunderstood what people mean when they say tap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
So the following sentence is incorrect?
"I was training with Professor Herzog and we were doing positional sparring. I started in spider-web over and over for a couple hours. Once, I caught him in the bicep-slicer and he tapped."
Is that not a valid use of the word tap? Perhaps I'm confused what people mean. If so, please disregard everything I've said in this thread.
Its just training, tapping someone from situational training, or starting in full spider web is just training
Tapping someone in free sparring is when it "counts" as a tap, but in the end its just a tap in training
He may never tap me, and many of my students will never tap me. That doesn't take away from my ability to teach them and help them grow in the slightest. I have a number of students I roll with every week that have been with me over 8 years that have never come close to tapping me. My browns get close but its still rare. So yes, not only do I expect that to happen , I know it to happen. Your assumptions based on very very limited experience is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
BTW my blues and purples have have tapped browns and blacks in competition or when they drop in to roll. Quality is not an issue.
Nope, because it wouldn't happen. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
The idea of letting someone tap me to make them better is silly. I don't train my students to be able to crack a white belt level defense, I train them to crack black belt level defense.
Also whats really ridiculous is the absurd idea that because someone doesn't get tapped out that often they must be holding back information from his/her students.
#WhiteBeltTheories
Why does anyone care about a "tap" of a higher belt in class? If you feel you can tap browns or blacks then simply sign up in expert at every tournament and do it....I would never consider a valid tap unless we verbally agreed we are going full speed before rolling.....just sayin.....this sport should teach humility not arrogance....
We have a black belt that's 63 years old and lemme tell you, NOBODY catches this guy. I don't doubt that the physical discrepancies can win some 50/50s or pull off a sweep, but that'd almost be as far as it goes. If a younger, fitter, more athletic blue or purple went toe-to-toe with this guy, they'll lose 10 outta 10 times. Guaranteed. I've witnessed it and felt it. Granted, you could make the argument that physicality can stack the deck, but then I'd say that it completely defeats the purpose of sparring with this guy or even practicing jiu jitsu at all if that's the attitude someone brings to the mats. I learn way more trying to go toe-to-toe with technique and getting smashed than using whatever advantage my relative youth grants me. I rolled against Kurt Osiander not too long ago and even tho he's literally twice my age, he ended up smashing me cuz of superior technique. Now, don't get me wrong, I felt at numerous times throughout the roll that I could throw in a youthful blast of explosion and possibly make something happen, but even then with his skill level, there wouldn't be any guarantees. I think it's on the student just as much as the professor to take the maximal value from a training session, and anything non-technique related could sadly distort the perception of how good someone is truly getting, in my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Nordberg
In the hypothetical scenario of someone training exclusively in 1 on 1 scenario with their instructor, it would be incredibly hard to progress to the point of being able to tap them. That person in in complete control of your knowledge base and knows your setups before they come. Not to mention you get absolutely no offensive reps to tweak it to your own style. These celebrity type training situations are cool for basic jiu jitsu knowledge but they are missing out on a incredibly irreplaceable aspect of training. The daily grind and adaptation you have with training partners cannot be simulated in a 1 on 1 pussified environment.
I don't even really understand what point you are trying to make Craig. No, you won't tap Lovato.
However, if you get a very athletic guy, size can help as well, that really gets into training for a good period of time, and you train with regularly, everyone gets caught. It's a part of the game, if you train with someone regularly, you will get caught. Having said that, I have really good training partners who have never tapped me and people who should have never tapped me who have because I didn't take them seriously and got too deep. It's all just part of the game. Many variables that occur on a daily basis. Being sick and on antibiotics. Taking a period of time off for injuries and coming back with people having drilled new setups you didn't get the opportunity to. They are all looked at in the end as learning experiences. It's just the gym homie, better to get caught there than in a comp.
Eddie never hands out taps.....he beats my ass pretty much everytime......but i try.......i really try!
No offense dude, but what you're describing sounds a lot like that Gracie "learn at home from Video" academy. The point of going to a class is to have training partners to roll with. Zog never has to hand out a pity tap once, but the students progress and experience learning (and applying) subs via rolling with their team mates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
What you're talking about is a BJJ career in private lessons only, and even in that case, I doubt any instructor is just going to hand out mercy taps unless it is obvious repping like what Zog talked about.