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Trying to get the hang of it, not sure if I got the mechanics correctly. What movements are involved here? Is that a sideways hyperextension of a sprawl? Am I supposed to be using my abs/obliques for that?
If it makes a difference, I'm trying for Einstein's non-choking-arm-pushes-off-the-opponent's-shoulder variation.
Any feedback will be appreciated :)
The Einstein one arm doesn't work for me. I'm sure it works, I just never got it to work. So I looked up how Marcelo does it because for a while that was his thing. I also checked how Jeff Monson does it because that's definitely one of his best moves.
Personally, I ball and socket grip and drive my shoulder toward the mat.
The most important thing with the north south choke is to give yourself lots of time and patience. I'll link a video to Marcelo showing some details for it but just know that it probably takes more time than any other choke done with the arms to develop a feel for. There's not really so much of a "squeeze" involved which means that you can't really get by on having less than ideal technique. On most chokes if your placement is off you can still get by with just squeezing your arms. Jiu-Jitsu is no different than boxing with things like that. The jab works because anyone can do it, but the best boxers throw it better.
Try to imagine that they're hanging upside down by their feet, and you have their head wrapped in the choke, and gravity is pulling you down. That's the idea you want. You want to sprawl and move backwards as far as possible. Even if you feel like you've gone back far enough keep on going. This opens up all that space under their chin for you to drive your shoulder down on their throat, almost like a von flue choke. I wouldn't worry too much about your obliques or your lats, except to use your ribs as an indicator of whether or not they're facing up. You want them facing the ceiling if possible.
You can do it with one hand, or a seatbelt/guillotine grip, gable grip, or a ball and socket grip (Marcelo's preference and mine). Just play around with that. it doesn't matter too much. If I use one hand I do like to use it to block their hip so they can't walk towards me to take my choking angle. I usually finish with 2 hands but if you can finish with 1 then you can almost always finish with 2. Just focus on keeping their face to the sky, continually sprawling backwards, and driving your shoulder down onto their throat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkFHJHC58qc
Here, have some videos!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1vD5mJWe_Q
Monson's style uses a pretty unique grip/hand position. It doesn't really work for me, but the details are good.
http://youtu.be/DcQtNN8jK10
Marcelo's style works best for me. He also includes some good entries.
Great response. I've been going for this but was losing confidence cuz of lack of patience. I guess the key is to just really sinking in deep and giving yourself time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Nall
I have watched Marcelo's North South choke instructionals a couple times, he even says it took him 4 or 5 years to be able to finish this choke, so get dem reps in
Exactly. Sometimes in the gi especially with all of the cloth it can be hard to feel whether your shoulder is on their throat or if their chin/face is inside the choke. I know this board is mostly no-gi but especially in the gi it takes time. Marcelo said it took him longer to be able to do it well at the Worlds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpoland
Thanks for the input! In Monson's video he claims his x-handed variation works with an arm in as well, he's a monster so I'm not sure it's a general thing but it'll be interesting to try. Marcelo even seems to have a bottom NS set up, definitely want to try that one.
Regarding the shoulder movement part though, I'm still not sure I get it - what muscles are involved in "driving the shoulder down" motion? If I want to use more than gravity it seems I need to use some sideways movement of my torso to get the shoulder lower, is that correct? Sprawl as far as possible whilst still keeping the weight over his neck + do a little sideway twisting for more shoulder sinking? It seems I can also add some crunching motion to get the shoulder lower on the neck.
You can go sideways a little, sure. If you do the NS choke on the floor by yourself right now with no one under you. For the sake of this drill, make a ball and socket grip, with your non choking arm against your side, and the choking elbow will be pointed out sideways. Keep your choking grip, sprawl, and try to touch the point of your shoulder to your fist without moving your grip around. So try to just keep your arms still and touch your shoulder to your grip. That's the motion. Imagine doing a plank and someone came up and started sitting on the back of your shoulder. Your shoulder would drop, right? That's the idea. I know it's weird because there's not really a squeeze involved but that's the idea. If that doesn't make sense I'll film myself doing it and upload it here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
I don't like Monson's X handed version, because it puts a lot of sheering pressure on my wrist, but hey there's no one way to do things. Maybe it works well! I rarely say such and such doesn't work that often, but I've found Marcelo's NS choke from under the guy to be really neccesary to have a powerful squeeze. Most arm chokes you can actually do without squeezing too much but that ain't one of them. I also suck at it so maybe I'll get there.
Yeah don't lose confidence man. Also, this one can take a while. I queued up some videos of Marcelo doing it on MGinaction the other day, and I noticed even with him, that most people took a good 10 seconds to tap once the choke was fully sunk. This one can just take a little longer to come on. So you may even have it in there deep and give up on it right before they tap. With the NS choke I like to cont down from 25-30 seconds depending on how deep it feels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
Even if it doesn't get you the tap if you've given it a solid try you won't have burned your arms out and you'll have demoralized him. Also, something that Marcelo really advocates that I love (with any submission) is going for it and if you miss it, reset, then bam! Drop right on it again. So you have side control or something, you drop on it. Give it 20-30 seconds, then come back to side control. Right as they start to settle, drop on it again. Each person may do a defense a little different, so just feel how they defended, take note, and try to beat that defense on your next shot.
All I got to say is, It took me nearly two years of ONLY looking for NS choke finish to even get it solidly into my game. I literally put every sub on the back burner and I would finish NS or nothing. I too scoured high level practitioners minds, studied all the vids I could find, and it still took two years of unyielding dedication too live rolling reps.
Good post Mike. I agree, I don't like Monson's X grip. But I like his details.
For the NS chokers out there, do you guys ever bait a guy to roll into the marcelotine? In theory, I feel like it's a good back up plan if you can't quite get the NS right.
Yes, I have a whole series of attacks that needs a very threating NS choke. Usually leads to a one arm mounted guilly, but will take mounted Marcellotine if available. Marcellotine from bottom as last resort, but I really messed up to get there. But you need a NS that demands some respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
It's a good follow up. Check out 2:52.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqwFuC3-0FI
I don't usually try to bait though. I go for the NS choke with full intention to finish it. I do like to bait but no usually with a technique that's so low risk and high reward like this. If I think I can get a NS choke I will try to put it away. But if they get out then the guillotine is a great option for a follow up.
That's definitely a smarter approach than simply baiting. Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah, go for the North South, you're in good position, no need to bait and get rolled, Marcelotine is the back up plan
I noticed the wrist pressure with Monson's X (trying on a foam roller), it seems if you slide the forearms a little further to get ulna on radius instead of wrist on wrist, you get local pain (only at first? don't know yet) but it reduces the wrist pressures. The pressure on the foam felt solid, but I think I'll stick to the one handed for now, the surprise advantage Brian Beaumont explains on MTS 69 sounds appealing to me. Thanks for the input!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Nall
Marcelo is so cool. I may have a man crush on him...or a man bjj crush.