Another lockdown troubleshooting question: Guys twisting to the side?

Lots of lockdown-related threads active on the forum at the moment, but I don't believe anyone's got this same problem.

When rolling with really fast guys (who know my lockdown game and actively do everything they can to stay out of it), one thing some of them tend to do that really messes me up is - just before I get the lockdown, they twist their body so the lockdown-side knee points up, and their weight is resting on the other side.

In other words, they're kinda in a twister side control position - with one leg in half guard (sort of), and the knee of that leg is pointed upwards.

Whenever this happens, I'm stuck. I can't get the lockdown, can't really get traditional half, can't move them (I can hardly move myself cuz of their position on top of me) - all I can do is extend my legs to squeeze my knees together and wait. Definitely not a sound game plan.

Any advice on what to do from this position? (Or how to stop opponents from getting here in the first place)

Thanks in advance!

Sounds like they are in twister pass, not alot of options there for you as this is one of eddies go to passes, and as far as i know not alot counters to it. Having said that you might want to tighten up your double underhooks and avoid that situation alltogether. However if it should happen again, have a heinsmen on the ready.

Do you try to jump right into lockdown/half guard? Or do you play other things to set up the lockdown? My point is I used to run into your same issue. The problem was I was predictable because I over played my lockdown, so I started working a z-guard as a distraction to set up my lockdown. Also look at some moves to force the lockdown such as mini and super stomps. As always, consult with an actual instructor, this was based off my ronin experience

get electric underhooks quickly. you need to get control of that side fast. then if they try and get the twister pass on you, you have a reasonably easy electric chair sweep.

in the twister pass, there are some things you can do to hide yo feet, and so on, but I dunno, its a pretty legit move. work on prevention rather than counters for it.

i used to run into this problem as well. i was so stubborn in trying to fight for the lockdown that i conceded the pass.

if you don't have that underhook and your opponent is able to turn towards your feet, immediately heisman - stiff arming his tricep/armpit area as you get up to your elbow. but the timing is very important, you shouldn't hesitate to do it, otherwise he'll settle into position and then you're screwed.

i did stumble upon this video a long time ago, it might work for you, but none of them worked for me. it was too easy for the top guy to counter.

http://youtu.be/w6b3pKiYPVw?list=PLH...JunPPSIGCx_BIi

This is how the brown belts in my gym squash my 1/4 and 1/2 guard game. They know exactly what I am looking for lol. Once they get all the way there I think your guard is pretty much fucked. They usually jack that same side underhook for a arm-lock or rolling kimura to the back.

Seems like a spastic shrimp/heisman might be your only option to survive and recover.

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

Lots of lockdown-related threads active on the forum at the moment, but I don't believe anyone's got this same problem.

When rolling with really fast guys (who know my lockdown game and actively do everything they can to stay out of it), one thing some of them tend to do that really messes me up is - just before I get the lockdown, they twist their body so the lockdown-side knee points up, and their weight is resting on the other side.

In other words, they're kinda in a twister side control position - with one leg in half guard (sort of), and the knee of that leg is pointed upwards.

Whenever this happens, I'm stuck. I can't get the lockdown, can't really get traditional half, can't move them (I can hardly move myself cuz of their position on top of me) - all I can do is extend my legs to squeeze my knees together and wait. Definitely not a sound game plan.

Any advice on what to do from this position? (Or how to stop opponents from getting here in the first place)

Thanks in advance!

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A sweep that's worked GREAT for me (if he has his elbow posted opposite your head and doesn't have the cross face) is...if your left leg (his right leg) are the ones locked down, you'd grip his left elbow with your left hand monkey grip palm facing your ear. You'd do a pendulum motion with your legs and ELEVATE your hips to come out the back door, swinging your left leg above his head and ELEVATING ELEVATING those hips, making sure that he doesn't smash them to the floor. Ultimately, and even possibly after some kicking of the air with your left leg to add to your momentum, you'll find yourself landing on top and finishing the sweep...not unlike a shaolin sweep. Make SURE that throughout this you are swinging your right arm underneath his legs as if you were going deep half. It's all one motion, which is basically a granby roll. If he counters by switching back off his hip and onto his knees, you're in a position to cup his left foot a la the old school sweep as a counter to the counter, then you'd plow through the guy or worst case recover to a safer guard. It's harder to explain than show, but there's video of a black belt named Jonatas Noveas that showed me this in a seminar. He's pulled it off in mma comp at the pro level and is a 2nd degree black belt. The sweeps been really, really money since it allows me to switch right to another move if I feel like he's breaking the lockdown. Proven solid in gi, no gi, and mma.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

A sweep that's worked GREAT for me (if he has his elbow posted opposite your head and doesn't have the cross face) is...if your left leg (his right leg) are the ones locked down, you'd grip his left elbow with your left hand monkey grip palm facing your ear. You'd do a pendulum motion with your legs and ELEVATE your hips to come out the back door, swinging your left leg above his head and ELEVATING ELEVATING those hips, making sure that he doesn't smash them to the floor. Ultimately, and even possibly after some kicking of the air with your left leg to add to your momentum, you'll find yourself landing on top and finishing the sweep...not unlike a shaolin sweep. Make SURE that throughout this you are swinging your right arm underneath his legs as if you were going deep half. It's all one motion, which is basically a granby roll. If he counters by switching back off his hip and onto his knees, you're in a position to cup his left foot a la the old school sweep as a counter to the counter, then you'd plow through the guy or worst case recover to a safer guard. It's harder to explain than show, but there's video of a black belt named Jonatas Noveas that showed me this in a seminar. He's pulled it off in mma comp at the pro level and is a 2nd degree black belt. The sweeps been really, really money since it allows me to switch right to another move if I feel like he's breaking the lockdown. Proven solid in gi, no gi, and mma.

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is this like the vault back sweep that lucas leite does? It was shown in Gamble's breakdown but I cannot find an instructional for it at all

I like the sound of that sweep. Going to play around with it based on the description

Thanks for the great advice guys!

ml82, that vid is DOPE!! Loads of thanks, gonna work on that for sure. That twister setup variation looks killer. :D

Arman, that sounds like one wicked (and really useful) sweep. If you remember the name of the sweep,or happen to find the video, can you post it here? Trying my best to visualise it, but my brain's just ain't juiced up enough to properly understand. :p

If they are turning to twister pass the Heisman is always a legit option. I also like to go to octopus guard (look up Telles)

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Originally Posted by Kevin Gibbs

If they are turning to twister pass the Heisman is always a legit option. I also like to go to octopus guard (look up Telles)

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Thanks dude, will look that octopus guard up. ;)

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

Thanks for the great advice guys!

ml82, that vid is DOPE!! Loads of thanks, gonna work on that for sure. That twister setup variation looks killer. :D

Arman, that sounds like one wicked (and really useful) sweep. If you remember the name of the sweep,or happen to find the video, can you post it here? Trying my best to visualise it, but my brain's just ain't juiced up enough to properly understand. :p

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I've been hitting it a lot in the gym, but I don't have a name or a video. I am fine tuning it and maybe I
can post an instructional when I become a brown belt. I mean, I get the sweep and could explain it in person or a vid no problem, been hammering out the details, but definitely wanna stay in my lane if I wanna continue here on the forums. As far as a name, if it ever becomes included into the system (it is a solid-ass sweep), I'd call it the blackjack sweep. Your guards almost passed, you're cross faced, but you find your grips and BOOM. Blackjack. It looks super flashy when pulled off. Much like blackjack tho, if you don't catch your momentum when you're on top, the guy could sweep you back, much like the spirit of doubling down big money and getting screwed by the dealer. But you heard it here first. Blackjack sweep. Ties really nicely into Kneebar entries as well, I've found lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmgNhtRby2MFound a video. His flat-back half guard game is ridiculous. The sweep I was describing was what he calls the Backroll Sweep. Skip to about 3:30. Some gi principles but it all applies to no gi and mma with minor modifications, you'll discover. One of which, instead of grabbing the gi pant, you could grab the toes on the opposite foot a la Old School. This has been extremely successful for me in either generating a reaction and/or getting the sweep outright. Or, if the toes aren't available, just swimming that arm through the posted leg , and being ready to hunt for toes if he switches his base. All the while doing the pendulum motion with your legs. Also, instead of grabbing the sleeve for the pendulum aka blackjack sweep (as I am now calling it given that I found out this guy trains out in Vegas), you can grab the back of his elbow. This too, I have found, works quite beautifully. (We could also call it the Bankroll sweep instead of the Backroll sweep or blackjack sweep. Bankroll sounds cool. Though I do like blackjack.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmgNhtRby2M

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmgNhtRby2MFound a video. His flat-back half guard game is ridiculous. The sweep I was describing was what he calls the Backroll Sweep. Skip to about 3:30. Some gi principles but it all applies to no gi and mma with minor modifications, you'll discover. One of which, instead of grabbing the gi pant, you could grab the toes on the opposite foot a la Old School. This has been extremely successful for me in either generating a reaction and/or getting the sweep outright. Or, if the toes aren't available, just swimming that arm through the posted leg , and being ready to hunt for toes if he switches his base. All the while doing the pendulum motion with your legs. Also, instead of grabbing the sleeve for the pendulum aka blackjack sweep (as I am now calling it given that I found out this guy trains out in Vegas), you can grab the back of his elbow. This too, I have found, works quite beautifully. (We could also call it the Bankroll sweep instead of the Backroll sweep or blackjack sweep. Bankroll sounds cool. Though I do like blackjack.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmgNhtRby2M

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That backroll sweep looks so awesome (though I gotta admit, Blackjack Sweep sounds a lot cooler), gonna try that tomorrow. Thanks Arman! ;)

Yea dude that bankroll sweep looks amazing.

I spend a stupid amount of time on the bottom in a position like that.

I will start hunting for toes. I wonder if you could grab/cup the heel?

How fast is this happening, that they are getting to twister side pass? Are they in head/arm control first?