Spin Side Kick vs Spin Back Kick

I am a 1990 U.S. Olympic Festival Silver medalist & 1990 U.S. Nationals Bronze medalist in TKD. I was trained by American TKD legend, two time Olympian (’88 & ’92) and former U.S. team head coach, Han Won Lee. I learned to wrestle from 1980 U.S. Olympic Team member James Bryant (the year we boycotted the games) and I am a purple belt in jiu jitsu under Eddie Bravo.

I’ve heard Joe Rogan talk about how the Spinning Side Kick is superior to the ‘knee down’ back kick for years. After hearing him speak with Kirik about it on his podcast I felt like sharing some ideas about it.

The spinning side kick that Joe talks about and impressively demonstrates in his Youtube videos is the older way of doing the kick. The ‘knee down’ way of doing the kick was the cutting edge way that the world class TKD athletes began to do the kick in the 1980’s. There are a few reasons for this.

1. The ‘knee down’ kick is faster
2. The ‘knee down’ kick is less telegraphed
3. The ‘knee down’ kick is harder to counter
4. The ‘knee down’ kick is more powerful

The ‘knee down’ kick is faster because the path to the target is more direct if you don’t raise your knee and because the knee isn’t raised it is harder to see coming at you.

In Olympic style TKD there is a concept of counter kicking which can be done at the same time a person is kicking called a Padachagi. A Padachagi is a round house kick which is done at the same time a person is kicking by switching your feet and sliding to the side. For example, if both people are standing in a conventional stance and fighter A throws an Axe kick with the back leg, it is possible for fighter B with the correct timing and distance control to throw a back leg roundhouse kick to the body while avoiding the axe kick to the head.

This same Padachagi, with the correct timing and distance control can be used to counter the knee up spinning side kick. It requires a high level of skill to do but it can be done.

It is true that you can develop a lot of power from the hip thrust in the knee up kick as Joe demonstrates in his videos but mechanically the ‘knee down’ kick is more powerful.

I wouldn’t say the spinning side kick with the knee up was wrong or ineffective but there are reasons why Olympic level TKD athletes no longer kick that way.

Which kick is better for MMA?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs4uQ6DfKV8

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Originally Posted by Amos

Which kick is better for MMA?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs4uQ6DfKV8

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As I said, I wouldn't say the older way is wrong of ineffective but it isn't as powerful or efficient at the 'knee down' kick can be. So I would say the 'knee down' kick can be more effective for MMA and is the reason why Jon Jones, Conor McGregor, Anthony Pettis etc... do the kick that way.

While I agree that the spinning back kick is faster (partially due to the fact that less rotation of the body is required), the spinning side kick does have a lot more options than the back kick. The back kick is nearly limited to simply that; however, the spinning side kick causes you to rotate the body more, allowing for a last second change in technique (hook, turning (or roundhouse depending on your generation or style)), direction (higher or lower, opponent side steps left or right), or control (you're already rotated, allowing you to return to a better fighting stance more rapidly).

The spinning back kick does have a little more power (can't really say a ton more, but it does have more) due to the speed increase in the lack of rotation, using more of your butt muscles, and the straight back motion as opposed to the rotating motion (think punching with your elbow already elevated vice low and protecting).

I love both after doing TKD for more than 30yrs, but technically, our style of TKD (ITF) doesn't even have a spinning side kick, only the spinning back kick for the reason Jason mentioned. I always prefer the lead leg side kick to gut with a slide personally...less powerful, but sneakier and faster. Fun discussion, now back to Jiu Jitsu. LOL

Facts & Science? All I see is speculation and opinion.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Facts & Science? All I see is speculation and opinion.

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It is the opinion of Olympic level TKD athletes. Like I said, I thought I would share some ideas about the kick that I haven't heard anyone in MMA talk about.

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Originally Posted by Jason Mallory

It is the opinion of Olympic level TKD athletes. Like I said, I thought I would share some ideas about the kick that I haven't heard anyone in MMA talk about.

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Opinions from athletes, Olympians or not, doesn't equal irrefutable evidence. Ability doesn't = knowledge. I've trained with, competed against, learned from, and taught Olympic athletes in Judo. The degree of understanding/knowledge athletes have varies greatly amongst them. They know what works well for them, that doesn't always equate to what works well for others.

You posted a number of absolutes as fact based on opinions. The discussion itself is interesting, however without testing them in a controlled environment, none of statements you made are facts.

Wouldn't mind seeing a video of the kick.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Opinions from athletes, Olympians or not, doesn't equal irrefutable evidence. Ability doesn't = knowledge. I've trained with, competed against, learned from, and taught Olympic athletes in Judo. The degree of understanding/knowledge athletes have varies greatly amongst them. They know what works well for them, that doesn't always equate to what works well for others.

You posted a number of absolutes as fact based on opinions. The discussion itself is interesting, however without testing them in a controlled environment, none of statements you made are facts.

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I posted some details about the kick based on observations and the experience of people at the highest level of the art.

Testing in a controlled environment would not prove anything either way. For example, if we measure how hard a person can kick with the knee up verses the knee down he would probably kick harder with the knee up if he is more familiar with that way of kicking. Another person being tested could have the opposite results if they are more familiar with the knee down way of doing the kick.

Testing and comparing two different people wouldn't prove anything either. There was a 'fight science' tv show, I don't remember what it was called but they compared a TKD guy, a Thai Boxer, a Capoeira dude and a Karate guy. They measured their kicking power and the order of power in the kicks was 1. Capoeira 2. TKD 3. Thai Boxer 4. Karate. It didn't prove anything because the people were all at different skill levels, ages, fitness levels etc... within their respective arts.

You know as well as I do that there is a big difference in the level between Judo down at the YMCA and the guys training with Jimmy Pedro. The same thing is true for TKD. As I said before, I haven't really heard anyone explain these ideas outside of TKD before.

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Originally Posted by Dwight Roux

Wouldn't mind seeing a video of the kick.

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Here you go Dwight. The first KO on the video is a 'knee down' back kick to the head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPVuC6ugmAw

Fact: The plural of "beef" is "beeves"...mind blowing!

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Originally Posted by Jason Mallory

I posted some details about the kick based on observations and the experience of people at the highest level of the art.

Testing in a controlled environment would not prove anything either way. For example, if we measure how hard a person can kick with the knee up verses the knee down he would probably kick harder with the knee up if he is more familiar with that way of kicking. Another person being tested could have the opposite results if they are more familiar with the knee down way of doing the kick.

Testing and comparing two different people wouldn't prove anything either. There was a 'fight science' tv show, I don't remember what it was called but they compared a TKD guy, a Thai Boxer, a Capoeira dude and a Karate guy. They measured their kicking power and the order of power in the kicks was 1. Capoeira 2. TKD 3. Thai Boxer 4. Karate. It didn't prove anything because the people were all at different skill levels, ages, fitness levels etc... within their respective arts.

You know as well as I do that there is a big difference in the level between Judo down at the YMCA and the guys training with Jimmy Pedro. The same thing is true for TKD. As I said before, I haven't really heard anyone explain these ideas outside of TKD before.

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You didnt preface your comments with "based on my observation ". You posted them as facts, and until proven otherwise, they are merely opinion.

1000% disagree that testing wouldn't prove anything. Controlled setting means all things being equal, skill and technique alike. Almost all tv shows are skewed for ratings and almost imediately disqualifies them from any type of legit testing.


Who is talking about YMCA level Judoka? I stated specifically the Olympians I worked with. I taught for nearly 10 years at a international Judo training camp that had several Olympians from multiple countries attend.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

You didnt preface your comments with "based on my observation ". You posted them as facts, and until proven otherwise, they are merely opinion.

1000% disagree that testing wouldn't prove anything. Controlled setting means all things being equal, skill and technique alike. Almost all tv shows are skewed for ratings and almost imediately disqualifies them from any type of legit testing.


Who is talking about YMCA level Judoka? I stated specifically the Olympians I worked with. I taught for nearly 10 years at a international Judo training camp that had several Olympians from multiple countries attend.

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Then I guess we can agree to disagree.

As far as turning back kicks go, there are three main types in my experience:
Mule kick, Side kick, Hook kick.

All three can be done turning or spinning but they are all very different in their delivery, impact and in how you defend them.

I can't see video but what you're describing to me (Knee down turning kick) sounds like what we called a "Turning Mule kick". If so, you would be turning and kicking straight back with your back turned to the opponent and your toes pointed towards the ground with your heel making contact in an upward direction. Is that what you're talking about?

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Originally Posted by Kurzy

As far as turning back kicks go, there are three main types in my experience:
Mule kick, Side kick, Hook kick.

All three can be done turning or spinning but they are all very different in their delivery, impact and in how you defend them.

I can't see video but what you're describing to me (Knee down turning kick) sounds like what we called a "Turning Mule kick". If so, you would be turning and kicking straight back with your back turned to the opponent and your toes pointed towards the ground with your heel making contact in an upward direction. Is that what you're talking about?

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Yeah... we just called it a back kick. I think the Korean name is actually dwichagi.

A tutorial would be great, looks like a great kick, I am sure it has its place.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

You didnt preface your comments with "based on my observation ".

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Originally Posted by Jason Mallory

After hearing him speak with Kirik about it on his podcast I felt like sharing some ideas about it.

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The intention came across pretty clear to me. Thanks for first clarifying why you're able to talk on the subject and then sharing your ideas Jason. I hadn't known about the knee down version and how high level TKD had switched over to it.

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Originally Posted by Ben Eddy

The intention came across pretty clear to me. Thanks for first clarifying why you're able to talk on the subject and then sharing your ideas Jason. I hadn't known about the knee down version and how high level TKD had switched over to it.

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"The ‘knee down’ kick is faster
The ‘knee down’ kick is less telegraphed
The ‘knee down’ kick is harder to counter
The ‘knee down’ kick is more powerful"

fact definition: what is fact: something known to have happened or to exist.

Its sure sounds like it was stated as fact to me. Not to mention he goes to to explain why they are fact.

I'm thinking that the OTC changed to the knee down version around 88 or 89. We had half the team doing it that way or reluctantly switching. It's not technically the mule kick as there's slightly a different angle. It did lend itself to easily transitioning towards the fade away side kick, jump fade, and jump spinning fade, as well as the soon added hook into the same sequence.

I did the knee up version for a while after seeing the Rogan video, but over time it turned into the back kick. For me it's quicker, less telegraphed, and I can go higher by leaning back more.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

"The ‘knee down’ kick is faster
The ‘knee down’ kick is less telegraphed
The ‘knee down’ kick is harder to counter
The ‘knee down’ kick is more powerful"

fact definition: what is fact: something known to have happened or to exist.

Its sure sounds like it was stated as fact to me. Not to mention he goes to to explain why they are fact.

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Those were his "ideas". You brought the word "fact" into this thread. Honestly, the fuck you going on about? Are you still waiting for "science" to back up Eddie Bravo's system? Or BJJ as a martial art for that matter? No, you have determined from your own personal anecdotal experience and the "research" that's been done by Eddie and others in the system that his shit works and you have acted accordingly.

Please add to this discussion by refuting his ideas if you have some of your own, but don't go on about how this isn't "science based".. What a waste of time.

thank you...

chris has a big ego and needs to check himself often....:D

anyheoww, shit happens, and sometimes it happens when you don't like it too, and the peeps around go, awe look what he did, crazy bastard. well, let them sleep it off then....

The point I making is that he made absolute statements, that were made as facts,percieved or otherwise , if you dont see that I cant help that. Force and velocity are measurable and those factors could be tested. We've had a number of students from local colleges come to our gym to do research projects on very similar concepts.

I'm glad you think you have me all figured out :)

As far as the kicks themselves I use both situationally

When someone is pressuring straight foward I like the spinning back kick vs spinning side kick, as I'm less likely to get my chamber jammed if I misjudge the timining. I do feel I have more power with the back kick in this situation as my kick has more room to accelerate.

I prefer the spinning side kick if the are circling away from me as I can lead the target and throw the kick where they are going to be vs where they are. If they are circling and moving away, I feel the spinning side kick gives me more reach to make the adjusts necessary to stay on target.

I use both both but prefer the spinning side kick when I attack the line of withdrawl ( if the back straight up), specifically for the ability to adjust the range depending of the speed at which they withdraw, I feel I can adjust and still have power at varying stages of the kick. And for me I can cover far more ground with the spinning side kick vs the spinning back kick.

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Originally Posted by Dwight Roux

chris has a big ego and needs to check himself often....:D

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Attachment 3380

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

When someone is pressuring straight foward I like the spinning back kick vs spinning side kick, as I'm less likely to get my chamber jammed if I misjudge the timining. I do feel I have more power with the back kick in this situation as my kick has more room to accelerate.

I prefer the spinning side kick if the are circling away from me as I can lead the target and throw the kick where they are going to be vs where they are. If they are circling and moving away, I feel the spinning side kick gives me more reach to make the adjusts necessary to stay on target.

I use both both but prefer the spinning side kick when I attack the line of withdrawl ( if the back straight up), specifically for the ability to adjust the range depending of the speed at which they withdraw, I feel I can adjust and still have power at varying stages of the kick. And for me I can cover far more ground with the spinning side kick vs the spinning back kick.

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Good points. As I said somewhere in this thread I wouldn't say the knee up version is wrong or ineffective. Each kick has it's benefits. A person should be flexible enough to use the correct tool at the right moment.

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Originally Posted by Jason Mallory

Good points. As I said somewhere in this thread I wouldn't say the knee up version is wrong or ineffective. Each kick has it's benefits. A person should be flexible enough to use the correct tool at the right moment.

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Agreed both have its benefits. We teach and encourage the use of both at our academy.


For the record I'm not pro one version over the next. Its awesome to see both being used more often in MMA as both turning/spinning kicks offer another dimension to the over all game that exiting to watch.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

The point I making is that he made absolute statements, that were made as facts,percieved or otherwise , if you dont see that I cant help that. Force and velocity are measurable and those factors could be tested. We've had a number of students from local colleges come to our gym to do research projects on very similar concepts.

I'm glad you think you have me all figured out :)

As far as the kicks themselves I use both situationally

When someone is pressuring straight foward I like the spinning back kick vs spinning side kick, as I'm less likely to get my chamber jammed if I misjudge the timining. I do feel I have more power with the back kick in this situation as my kick has more room to accelerate.

I prefer the spinning side kick if the are circling away from me as I can lead the target and throw the kick where they are going to be vs where they are. If they are circling and moving away, I feel the spinning side kick gives me more reach to make the adjusts necessary to stay on target.

I use both both but prefer the spinning side kick when I attack the line of withdrawl ( if the back straight up), specifically for the ability to adjust the range depending of the speed at which they withdraw, I feel I can adjust and still have power at varying stages of the kick. And for me I can cover far more ground with the spinning side kick vs the spinning back kick.

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You could have just replied with that to start with, would have made this thread alot shorter.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Attachment 3380

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ego

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Originally Posted by Dwight Roux

You could have just replied with that to start with, would have made this thread alot shorter.

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Attachment 3383

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Originally Posted by Dwight Roux

ego

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Lmao!!

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

The point I making is that he made absolute statements, that were made as facts,percieved or otherwise , if you dont see that I cant help that. Force and velocity are measurable and those factors could be tested. We've had a number of students from local colleges come to our gym to do research projects on very similar concepts.

I'm glad you think you have me all figured out :)

As far as the kicks themselves I use both situationally

When someone is pressuring straight foward I like the spinning back kick vs spinning side kick, as I'm less likely to get my chamber jammed if I misjudge the timining. I do feel I have more power with the back kick in this situation as my kick has more room to accelerate.

I prefer the spinning side kick if the are circling away from me as I can lead the target and throw the kick where they are going to be vs where they are. If they are circling and moving away, I feel the spinning side kick gives me more reach to make the adjusts necessary to stay on target.

I use both both but prefer the spinning side kick when I attack the line of withdrawl ( if the back straight up), specifically for the ability to adjust the range depending of the speed at which they withdraw, I feel I can adjust and still have power at varying stages of the kick. And for me I can cover far more ground with the spinning side kick vs the spinning back kick.

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There's the good stuff. No worries, I get it. Just saying most of us don't have pubmed sources. Just how it goes for a martial art, you're going to have to pick and choose who you listen to.

This calls for a special episode of fight science.

Interesting!

I used to do kung fu way back in the day and we would call it a spinning psychic. I never really knew what the difference was between a spinning sidekick and a spinning back kick. Thanks for clarifying!