Palhares vs. Shields - WSOF

Even though it was going on at the same time as the UFC event, this World Series of Fighting event had me livid. It's frustrating watching guys you're a fan of get screwed by incompetent reffing and dirty play. Palhares (Paul Harris) kept poking Jake's eyes out and if you find the post-fight pictures of Jake on social media, both of the muscles around his eyes are totally blown out. I will admit, from a purely jiu jitsu standpoint, that Paul Harris's kimura was slick. The way he got his left knee out from underneath Jake and used the leverage to get to the top has been a staple for some sweeps that I've learned, and from this match learning that the kimura could utilize that same principle. Obviously he's legit from a purely technical perspective, but he's not a sportsman. In all honesty, I don't think justice is served if this guy is allowed to fight another professional fight. Curious to see what other people think.

(sidenote: couldn't find an insertable link to view the video that was in English, my bad)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajZe1aUuKlg

Full fight (in Portuguese, couldn't find English on Youtube). A great jiu jitsu battle overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihT6H-tnbKo

If Ray Sefo is a man of his word, Paul Harris should be given the boot.

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/12/3...palhares-if-it

Honestly didn't think it was that long after ref got there. Without his history no one would Prob say much. Didn't Jake say he was gonna try to break something? Live and die by the sword.

I'm more pissed about the eye gouges. The kimura was a touch long but mazaggatti should have been grabbing the kimura arm and pushing it in the opposite direction to relieve the pressure. Tapping on him to let go isn't so effective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Will Thaxton

Honestly didn't think it was that long after ref got there. Without his history no one would Prob say much. Didn't Jake say he was gonna try to break something? Live and die by the sword.

---

I counted 4 taps after the point where 99.9% of people would have let go. In and of itself, I agree it probably wouldn't get him in hot water without his history. But the fact that he's notorious for this type of thing for sure creates a snowball. Jake's a pro. I think he was saying that stuff more to put it out there that there's no way in hell he's gonna take any aspect of this fight lightly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brent Smith

I'm more pissed about the eye gouges. The kimura was a touch long but mazaggatti should have been grabbing the kimura arm and pushing it in the opposite direction to relieve the pressure. Tapping on him to let go isn't so effective.

---

What ticked me off about Mazagatti is that he was doing a poor job articulating to Palhares to stop eye-gouging. The portuguese/English barrier reared it's ugly head there. Palhares coulda easily just feigned not understanding, but either way coupled it with 50 cc's of not giving a shit. Jake was having his way on the ground otherwise, but couldn't keep the american jiu jitsu smash going cuz he kept getting clawed. It's disappointing.

Eye gouges should have been point penalty.

Paul Harris needs to get banned from MMA...

I must say that Kimura setup was slick as hell, but cranking on a Kimura for 5+ seconds after a tap can put someone out for 6 months.

Paulhares clearly does not have the mental capacity to be allowed to compete in MMA. Remember his super strange fight with Marquardt where he basically let himself get TKO'd? That was right after the Drwal heel hook. Now this. Eye gouges are no joke. Have him fight Yvel or Gordeau if he insists on competing. That Belcher fight is a great re-watch after he pulls this kind of stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Will Thaxton

Honestly didn't think it was that long after ref got there. Without his history no one would Prob say much. Didn't Jake say he was gonna try to break something? Live and die by the sword.

---

how long do you hold onto kimuras after someone taps? Have you ever been kicked out of a gym for constantly injuring people? I disagree. If no one knew who he was, I still think people would complain about how long he held it. He was tapped by the opponent, tapped and verbally informed by the ref, and even had his arms yanked to stop the sub. He let go when he wanted to let go. And that was well after Shields tapped. Unless you suck at jiu jitsu and don't know what a tap feels like, we all know what a tap feels like. And it's really not that hard to let go. Especially when a ref jumps in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brent Smith

I'm more pissed about the eye gouges. The kimura was a touch long but mazaggatti should have been grabbing the kimura arm and pushing it in the opposite direction to relieve the pressure. Tapping on him to let go isn't so effective.

---

The equivalent to what you're saying is that refs should be holding guys' arms to stop them from punching. Should? Sure, why not. But it's not too common a practice because once a ref gets involved, fighters typically stop punching or cranking a sub. Palhares keeps going. That's the problem. If everyone is smart enough to stop hurting their opponent once the ref intervenes, and Palhares doesn't, then he is not safe enough to compete.


Does part of me want him to keep fighting because he's fun to watch? Of course. But he's a drop in a bucket. There are dozens of guys that are fun to watch too. Not just that, but any time he fights a top 10 guy, he loses. So it's not like we're missing the answer to whether or not he could ever become champ. He can...in WSOF. He can't in the UFC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by David Rosado

how long do you hold onto kimuras after someone taps? Have you ever been kicked out of a gym for constantly injuring people? I disagree. If no one knew who he was, I still think people would complain about how long he held it. He was tapped by the opponent, tapped and verbally informed by the ref, and even had his arms yanked to stop the sub. He let go when he wanted to let go. And that was well after Shields tapped. Unless you suck at jiu jitsu and don't know what a tap feels like, we all know what a tap feels like. And it's really not that hard to let go. Especially when a ref jumps in.

---

He could let the kimura go earlier, but I don't think he should react on the tap of his opponent. Some time ago I let go a submission immediatly once my opponent tapped and the referee said he didn't tap. He didn't even ask my opponent, so I had to start all over. He should only leave the submission when the referee tells him to, especially at this level with all the risks involved. This isn't training.

That's happened many times too but the difference here is as soon as the ref touches you, you're safe to let go.

I'm not some BJJ savant, but I believe the solution is simple. You hold the sub. You don't crank it. In other words, if you feel a tap, just hold it. Don't keep cranking it. Check with the opponent and the ref if it's a tap. If not, crank again and get the tap.

But I mean, what excuse do we have for him still cranking after the ref is literally peeling him off? The ref didn't see the tap?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by David Rosado

I'm not some BJJ savant, but I believe the solution is simple. You hold the sub. You don't crank it. In other words, if you feel a tap, just hold it. Don't keep cranking it. Check with the opponent and the ref if it's a tap. If not, crank again and get the tap.

But I mean, what excuse do we have for him still cranking after the ref is literally peeling him off? The ref didn't see the tap?

---

Worst solution ever as that's when escapes will happen. You apply pressure until the referee stops you.

That being said, this was beyond referee intervention, as many other stoppages he has been involved in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Worst solution ever as that's when escapes will happen. You apply pressure until the referee stops you.

That being said, this was beyond referee intervention, as many other stoppages he has been involved in.

---

I agree, But I feel the Ref tapping you on the back saying stop stop stop shouldn't apply here. I think referee's should get in between the two fighters (obv easier said than done), especially when the tap occurs. It shouldn't be a passive thing like (hey buddy thats enough) it should be like prying two dogs off each other. Just my opinion though.

Palhares should be banned for the eye gouges or at least suspended

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Mejia

It shouldn't be a passive thing like (hey buddy thats enough) it should be like prying two dogs off each other.

---

That's a perfect analogy. I recall one of Ronda Rousey's fights (I think against Liz Carmouche?) that when Ronda had her in an armbar, right when Liz tapped, John McCarthey dove in and completely pried off/discombobulated the armbar. It was a fine job, I thought. To be fair though, Ronda cooperated the second the ref intervened. Mazzegatti probably coulda done more to intervene than just slapping Hoozeemar on the shoulder, but even still, Paul Harris knew he had it and still held it for a second or two after Mazzegatti intervened (if you could call it that).

I agree that the Ref should apply some sort of assistance in saving the limb, but you also open them up to jacking it up even worse depending on the situation and position of the Ref. Regardless, he's a repeat offender and if not banned, he should be fined significantly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NotReady

Paulhares clearly does not have the mental capacity to be allowed to compete in MMA. Remember his super strange fight with Marquardt where he basically let himself get TKO'd? That was right after the Drwal heel hook. Now this. Eye gouges are no joke. Have him fight Yvel or Gordeau if he insists on competing. That Belcher fight is a great re-watch after he pulls this kind of stuff.

---

That will always be my favorite fight

Ideally you should be able to let go when he taps BEFORE the ref stops you, and the other guy just goes on his honor. Worst case they have an instant replay. But im sure that's easier said than done

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mario Lopez Alvarez

Ideally you should be able to let go when he taps BEFORE the ref stops you, and the other guy just goes on his honor. Worst case they have an instant replay. But im sure that's easier said than done

---

Alas, in a perfect world....

Something I didn't even think about is the fact that Palhares is a Murilo Bustamante black belt. Why is this relevant? Recall UFC 37, Bustamante vs. Matt Lindland and the infamous "double-tap" incident. In summary, Bustamante had a fully applied armbar, Lindland tapped, Bustamante let go, the ref didn't see the tap, Lindland kept going (lack of honor), and Bustamante was incredibly butt hurt. He ended up catching Lindland in a guillotine later, regardless. Now for all we know, he's told this story to Palhares countless times over the years they've trained together. For all we know, Murilo told Palhares that when he fights, never let go even if the guy taps, until the ref literally pries you off.

Who's to say that this isn't the root cause of why Palhares holds submissions too long? You'd think after all the suspensions, bad press, fines, etc. Palhares would've figured it out by now. But if he's got his Master's story stuck in his brain, the guy he learned everything from, I mean....crazier things have happened.

Bustamante kicked him out for injuring training partners. They got him a shrink and everything. I don't think it was bustamante's advice that led to this. Either it's intentional or he's too dumb to play by the rules. Either way, he's not worth the trouble.