Opponent stacking when in Closed guard.

Hey guys.

So I was rolling last night with a guy who was a a lot bigger than me. I'm 88kg, this guy was easilly 100kg+. He was a new guy at the gym so I havent rolled with any one of that size difference often.

I established closed guard and he wrestler based, forehead in my jaw, ass in the air.
I was struggling to come up with ideas with what to do from here because anytime I tried for something it was just stuffed.

When a smaller opponent has done this, usually it just gives me a better chance to get a higher guard, even rubber guard/ free new york. At times with others their elbows have been fairly open at this point so easy triangles and reversals to mount happen; but I couldnt get anything on this guy.

Any tips? Go to techniques?
I think this sort of position is quite an amateur thing to do when you're in someones guard, because its basically the opposite of posturing. I didnt feel threatened with any guard pass or submission while I was there...to be honest it was out of boredom that I tried to stay active because he just never settled.

Even as I'm typing now, I'm sure a could use a butterfly hook or something.

Advice appreciated!

If I get in this kind of scenario, I'll either use a foot on his hip to try and push him away if I think I can get to my rubber guard, or insert a butterfly and chop his other leg to sweep.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but this can be a pain for me, although in my case I'm getting stacked in my rubber guard and can't progress to IC. What do you do to combat this? A hip push helps to some extent. Also I'm pretty comfortable stacked. Should I wait it out in NY crackhead? Any and all comments are appreciated!

push fore arm away, get perpendicular, arm triangle him.....

I dig the knuckles of my fist into the squishy part of his throat until I can crossface and lift his chin. From there you have options depending on his reaction.

The reason this is frustrating is because it keeps his hips square with yours and you get no angle. You have to create a lil space before you can get an angle.

Also prevent him from ever getting there with proper frames. Forearms or elbows on his clavicle or foot on hip.

Dont know why I didnt use the foot on hip. Makes complete sense. Anthony - that half butterfly sweep you mentioned is something I usually do but I find it difficult to chop the other leg if the guy is a monster.

I'll try some of the throat stuff also, thanks Bobby.

Logan - If I do get stacked once I've established New York, for me it makes it easier to get to the Omoplata because they're burying their head down for you to Kung fu move over.

I was exhausted during this role also - think I just mentally tapped out and just defended.

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Originally Posted by JoeFirth

Dont know why I didnt use the foot on hip. Makes complete sense. Anthony - that half butterfly sweep you mentioned is something I usually do but I find it difficult to chop the other leg if the guy is a monster

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You can also put your foot just above the knee and push straight back ala traditional "push sweep" to remove that base leg. I usually try the chop first, push second. This move works best if you can secure a strong overhook first. Also with a strong attempt at the single butterfly sweep you can sometimes move to ham sandwich if he avoids you "chopping" leg.

Sweet, thanks for the input!

This works for me sometimes.

http://youtu.be/skjz6gjGVE0

Anyone who is a pro at the dropkick from stacked rg able to give some key pointers for this move?

What's the situation with his arm positioning? If he's trying to can opener you with his hands around your head to compress you, I like the deep hook transition to the toss right into spiderweb. If his hand is on the mat, I like to go to the omoplata. If his forearms are in tight on your hips, I would try some pop triangles. Once he starts to feel threatened from the stack position in your guard, he'll start respecting your reactions and change his approach up. Also, once he postures his first foot up to stack, I like to underhook the leg ASAP and try for a pendulum sweep or armbar. Usually even if he doesn't know what you have in mind, that will scare him and he might just put the leg back down. Putting a butterfly hook in to attempt a sweep isn't a bad plan either but a good guard passer will stuff your knee and look to pass immediately. Try to take advantage of the fact that he's taking his own movement away by stacking. Scooping an underhook on his arm and getting to prison guard has also worked for me. Luckily I train with a few big savage training partners who like to do this so I've developed a gameplan somewhat on how to deal with it.

I was just looking at this. There's also a good butterfly sweep from there too that I think someone mentioned earlier in context of a full guard. I'll have to rep these and see if I can get them to work live. Also, noob question, but isn't this the same as Eddie's Helio sweep from the ARG book? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still fairly new to the 10P system but loving every minute of it!

Thanks for the input. I'll make a point to drill the toss and pop triangle this next week!

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Originally Posted by Greg W

You can also put your foot just above the knee and push straight back ala traditional "push sweep" to remove that base leg. I usually try the chop first, push second. This move works best if you can secure a strong overhook first. Also with a strong attempt at the single butterfly sweep you can sometimes move to ham sandwich if he avoids you "chopping" leg.

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Yeah that is a good option also. I think due to fatigue I got a bit too attached to keeping my guard closed. My hips were off the ground also I just felt like he could pass if i unlocked them.

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Originally Posted by hespectnogi

What's the situation with his arm positioning? If he's trying to can opener you with his hands around your head to compress you, I like the deep hook transition to the toss right into spiderweb. If his hand is on the mat, I like to go to the omoplata. If his forearms are in tight on your hips, I would try some pop triangles. Once he starts to feel threatened from the stack position in your guard, he'll start respecting your reactions and change his approach up. Also, once he postures his first foot up to stack, I like to underhook the leg ASAP and try for a pendulum sweep or armbar. Usually even if he doesn't know what you have in mind, that will scare him and he might just put the leg back down. Putting a butterfly hook in to attempt a sweep isn't a bad plan either but a good guard passer will stuff your knee and look to pass immediately. Try to take advantage of the fact that he's taking his own movement away by stacking. Scooping an underhook on his arm and getting to prison guard has also worked for me. Luckily I train with a few big savage training partners who like to do this so I've developed a gameplan somewhat on how to deal with it.

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I believe his arms were fairly shoulder/bicep orientated. He was a beginner I believe but had some OK wrestling top pressure. It was mainly him stalling until I tried something with the odd attempt of kimura'ing me in my own guard :|

I was trying the pedulum sweep from a fake/failed arm bar but just couldnt get that elbow across the centre line.

Definitely a lot to take from the thread - I really appreciate the response.

Even if you get your foot on the hip it often won't help if he's really big and strong. Not "throat stuff". It's the art of framing and creating space. Space allows you to move. Movement is good.

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Originally Posted by Dpoland

push fore arm away, get perpendicular, arm triangle him.....

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This is usually my go-to for this situation, sorry if someone expanded on this already because I didn't go to page 2 yet but this will make it easier:

Grips - Put your hand gently on his elbow so he doesn't know yet you want his arm over while your other arm pulls his head into you.
Legs - Hips up in the air and and pull his weight away from you with your legs so he cannot use as much pressure into his forearm or elbow into you.
Execute all at once - Shuck his arm across, keep pulling his head in the whole time and pull your legs back into you like a reverse crunch. This will thrust his weight forward right into the arm triangle if done all at once.

I usually just finish it from the bottom by getting the perpendicular angle and choking, but you can even stay flat, then straighten your legs which will straighten his legs. Then you sneak a butterfly in and sweep, finish from top. That sweep is risky compared to the bottom finish if you got a good choke though ;)

He's not getting forearmed. He's getting shoulder pressured.

In reality you can just sit there till he wears out. You're in no danger. Also preventative measures. Never let anyone grab your head, unless you're baiting them.

The jaws of life are nice if you want to share the pain while he is stack smashing. I'll fist choke to just to make him uncomfortable.

i personally love rolling with the big guys. i usually put my feet on their hips so i don't have to strain so hard to maintain the closed guard. against a really big dude it can be just a labor intensive to hold your guard closed as it is for him trying to drive you into the mats. i'm relatively new to the 10 planet system, but i think this is definitely jaws of life territory and if you have good squeezing pressure from your knees behind his shoulders (ie old school armbar from the guard) while you're feet are resting on their hips its pretty tough for the guy stacking to get his arms back. when he tries it gives you plenty of space to attack.