Is she ok? Can somebody give us an EBI update?
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Is she ok? Can somebody give us an EBI update?
Yeah, I'd love to know too
(But no spoilers, my wife and I only got to the semi-finals before we had to go to bed)
I hope she's ok too but it looked pretty bad. Need to make sure the coaches and competitors are on the same page when it comes to the rules. More importantly this is why you educate students on leg locks
Everyone was on the same page, all wanted heel hooks.Quote:
Originally Posted by hespectnogi
That's good to know!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
My Sambo coach teaches leg locks (including heel hooks both regular and inverted) to kids all the time and he's never had one injury in the gym. There's also a thread discussion on this too (Riley and BRuce are in the chain too).
https://www.facebook.com/mike.calimbas
At the end of the day at some point we all need to be ready for it. I'm nervous about leg locks myself when I compete but that makes me tap all the sooner once I see it's 88% locked in or about to. As much as I like the idea of winning the sword saying I beat a high belt, I like having my limbs too.
Overall I think Sophie might have either underestimated the lock Riley had, or she over estimated her flexibility and pain tolerance. You can see her try to reach and break the lock for a full second or two before RIley makes the face of "ummm are u sure you're ok" and then I think she verbally concedes there and then you can see her leg go limp. I met Riley and her Dad at HQ in Aug and I know she's not Rousimar Palhares and she felt bummed about it too after.
Personally I would like to never see heel hooks in kids matches again, regardless what the kids or their coaches agree to. It's just too much risk with very little reward. EBI is such an amazing event, this kind of thing threatens it's reputation. Who cares if kids don't get to go for heelhooks? Does anyone think the matches won't be just as entertaining without them?
No heelhooks for kids.
Wanting them and being able to intelligently teach your students how to apply and defend them as well as when to know you're done is a completely different thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Riley could not have done that heel hook more politely (in a comp) from the footage I've seen. IMO she did zero wrong. Sad for everyone involved specially Riley, as it no doubt put a dampener on the biggest win of her life.
Agree. Kids make poor life choices all the time, so I think it's just safer not to let them get in that situation until they're older.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Baldwin
I'd also question the quality of aftercare at the event too - where were the first aiders?
She looked like she had never been in that spot before. No attempts to escape or defend, just waiting to tap, and waiting too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Baldwin
My comment was in response to a bunch of lazy boy recliner quarter backs that said she didn't know heel hooks we legal during the event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Baldwin
Clearly wanting them and know them are 2 different things.
More risk than what? All submission are a risk if not trained correctly or consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
Did Rani not know that armbars can injure you if you hesitate to tap?
The risk to getting injured by heel hooks is lack of training, education and drilling.
and the real issues isn't heel hooks, its knowing when to tap.
Message by Garry Tonon:
Dear jiu jitsu community,
It has come to my attention that heelhooks are being used more and more in mainstream competition in both MMA and BJJ. I am excited for this but it comes with a responsibility. You absolutely must educate your students, or bring someone in who can, on how to intelligently apply and defend these submission holds, and all submission holds. How can you as a coach, in good conscience, allow a student of yours to compete were a submission hold is not only legal, but common, and not educate them about it. I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are a lot of serious injuries happening in gyms and competitions every year. 99% of them are preventable and or able to be made less serious by proper education. Your students need to understand that this submission hold is powerful and can do great damage if it is not respected. I am not sorry that people get injured in these moves. We operate in a COMBAT SPORT! When intelligent defence is not applied, and a person does not tap, limbs break and people go unconscious. This is real stuff we're dealing with. Tell your students that! Make it clear, if you are not responsible and educated you will get unnecessarily hurt or unnecessarily hurt others. As well as education about the actual techniques it is your job as an instructor to rid your school of ego. If you teach your students to consider taking pops in moves just to not tap in the gym just to not get submitted by someone injuries will happen. If you let your students apply moves aggressively and recklessly in spite of people, injuries will happen. Ok rant over. There's probably some stuff I missed but please consider my message.
This reminds me that I am due for a visit to Rochester.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Getting your arm hyperextended and getting your ACL torn are two different levels of injury. I'm not disputing that a lack of training or education is the reason someone got hurt. I'm saying that the greater BJJ community already has a misunderstanding of heelhooks (which is the reason Garry would write that letter to the community). So in the face of that, I think it's better to just remove them from kids matches. It's also common knowledge that there is much less pain before injury in a heel hook. Yes you should understand the position and know when to tap. But these are kids and kids do stupid things sometimes, especially in the heat of the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
I see no advantage to having heelhooks in kids matches and I see a danger to the reputation of the event, warranted or not. I'm not blaming EBI or the rules, but plenty of people are. It's just not worth it in my opinion. The reputation of the event is more important than allowing kids to attack twisting leg locks.
Just my opinion.
Craig, I don't know if I agree with the idea that the heelhook doesn't cause pain prior to injury. In my experience guys I apply it to feel highly inclined to tap if you know what I mean. Also, Garry shares this point as mentioned on his Facebook earlier today I quote:
"There's some false belief out there that you don't feel a heelhook till it's too late to tap that's insane a properly applied heelhook in the gym gives plenty of warning to tap"
I would love to hear Coach Zog's view on this (heelhooks and feeling pain).
Also banning submissions based on damage incurred before pain would mean that wrist locks should also go? What about individual differences in flexibility and/or pain tolerance in say a Kimura for example? I think we are all in agreement about keeping people safe but the best way to do that is to have people informed not simply banning submissions.
It seemed like it was a serious injury in the moment, but I saw that she went to the ER and there is no serious damage. There was plenty of time for her to have tapped sooner. Riley secured the position and waited for the tap as most of us are taught.
Ok, maybe that's true. But my opinion is not based on the reality of heelhooks, it's based on the larger community's perception of heelhooks and how it looks when kids get injured from them at EBI. I see no advantage to having them in kids matches and I see significant risk to the reputation of the event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian Parker
All 4 kids in EBI 5 wanted heel hooks, all of them including Sophie. So I let them. She was taken to the hospital right after her match. She's home now and very positive about the whole experience. She won't know the extent of her injury until she gets her MRI results
Your opinions is clearly not based on the reality of heel hooks, most of the larger community's knowledge of leg locks are elementary at best. Your limited knowledge perception isn't relative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
Your comparison or a hyper extended elbow vs a acl tear is silly. You're talking about complete opposite ends of the spectrum to fight your argument. How about a distal bicep tendon tear (which can happen via an armbar) vs a acl tear. Both usually require surgery and and take about the same time to recover from.
There is zero evidence, other than ignorance, that show that upper body submissions are safer than lower body submission.
i agree. i don't think it is appropriate to assume they are making fully informed decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by brianspinaltap
i think kids rules should include a larger margin of error for knowing when to tap (not as early as an adult would), subs only need to be locked in so far before a ref steps in.
i'm sure i'll get shit on for this but these are kids competing, not adults who are earning a living from competing or are training full time.
Not really much you can do besides Ice it and compression wrap it. No need for a Paramedic to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by brianspinaltap
It's not about reality it's about the larger's community's perception, that's been my point the entire time. You said it yourself, the larger community's knowledge is elementary at best. So sure we could use this issue to try to start that debate and maybe educate people at the expense of the tournament's image, or we can remove the technique and solve any potential perception problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
^^^^ This... It's obvious that Sophie hasn't trained with heel hooks very much if at all. You can "want" them all you want but if you don't train them, you're just not ready for them and you'll have no clue how to react.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
It is true that most will not feel actual pain before the injury from a heel hook... but you will feel the pressure from the tendons tightening... some equate that to pain... some do not. Either way it's a warning sign that things are getting tight.
I've seen more people injured from kimuras and armbars than I have from heel hooks. The injuries occurring from leg locks stem from lack of knowledge on both sides and in some cases a lack of respect. The joint layout for the the leg is the same as the arm. Ball joint, hinge joint, ball joint, from top to bottom. There's no pressures that can be put on the leg joints that can't be put on the corresponding joints in the arm. The main three things that separate them are shape, size, and placement. So maintaining ignorance of leglocks is quite literally the equivalent of ignoring armlocks. So even if we were to abolish leg locks in kids matches, they still need to be educated on them, just as they would be with an armbar and such. Tonon's post was on point.
SmhQuote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
Why be worried about how people perceive the event? EBI is the best Tournament, if people don't think so they're either wrong or have a different taste. Why try and change their mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
Because EBI is an entertainment product. The whole idea is to get Jiu Jitsu on TV. Perception matters. If you are an exec at SpikeTV or FoxSports1, injuries to children is certainly something you might be thinking about if you are considering picking up the promotion and airing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojoplata
Your question was "why be worried about how people perceive the event?" The answer should be self-evident. Because you want as many people to watch it as possible. Because people's perceptions matter. Because no one wants to see little girls getting picked up and carried off the mat after getting their knees broken and they are unable to stand.
"the girl should have been properly educated on how to defend and tap to heel hooks" is a really shitty argument to give when SpikeTV is considering picking you up until they watch a child get her knee broken by another child.
It's all about perception. Not only does perception matter, with respect to the promotion of an entertainment product, perception IS reality.
The reason EBI is a great event is because all submissions are allowed and there aren't any points.
Ultimately... as a Martial Art we need to ALL aspects of grappling... OFFENSE and DEFENSE.
As with all submissions the practitioners need to be taught responsibility.... if something pops on you it will not be because I had no concern for your well being it will be because your ego didn't allow you to tap in time.
"With great power comes great responsibility."
A fine argument when you're talking about the adult tournament. The argument loses considerable strength when you are watching little girls get carried off the mat, unable to stand, to a technique that a very large portion of the larger BJJ community feels is dangerous. A technique in fact that was not allowed in previous EBI kids fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Baldwin
Let me ask you this: Why were heelhooks forbidden in previous kids fights?
I mean, in fairness, if someone wants to be an asshole, they could just jerk and wrench a submission and you'd have no chance to tap before you got injured. That didn't happen in this case, but just sayin, it takes 2 to tango. My job is to give you time to tap, your job is to tap. Not that I'd ever tap a black belt, but you know what I mean.
Just want to say, this is argumentum ad populum. A very large portion of the bjj community think 10th planet is shit. That means nothing, doesn't make them right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
It's not about being right. Ad Populum is EXACTLY the point. This isn't about being right it's about the promotion of an entertainment product.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyMc
Since 10p will receive criticism regardless of action, why not just be right and let the chips fall where they may, rather than conceding to those who are wrong for the sake of perception?
It's not conceding to those who are wrong, it's about creating the most marketable JJ tournament possible. Girls getting carried off the mat is counter-productive to that goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Schrimsher
Why were heelhooks illegal in previous kids fights?
Sadly I agree. Nothing to do with the 'should they, should they not be legal' for BJJ's sake, but for Eddies vision of getting this on TV injuries to kids are not a good look.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
But then, should kids not be competeing at all? A kid getting their arm broken or put to sleep is going to be a pretty horrible look too.
I guess when I think from a getting it on TV perspective there has to be no kids matches. Sad.
It's not ideal but I don't think it's nearly as bad. If a kid goes to sleep, they wake back up and can stand there for the hand raising, and they walk off the stage, clearly fine. Armbars too, it might look kinda bad when it hyperextends, and the kid might be nursing their arm, but they still stay on the mat for the hand-raising and then they walk off it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Bruhn
It's not ideal, but to me it LOOKS much less serious. There is also huge promotional value to the kids fights. They are extremely entertaining and compelling. Many people think they are their favorite in each event. So there is value on that side of the equation.
To me it's about balancing those risks and rewards. Kids fights are a huge value for the promotion. They are an inherent risk. Eddie and Co's job is to balance those risks and rewards.
To me, heelhooks are a big risk with little to no reward. Kid fights are a huge reward.
I disagree.
Seeing a kid get put to sleep would look a lot worse in my opinion. Not everyone lays there all calm and peaceful. Can look pretty ugly, is it as serious as a knee injury though no.
Suppose I'd just never considered how it would look if a kid got injured till now. To knowledgeable people it's part of the game, but again, if it's trying to be on TV and anyone can flick the channel and come across it, kids 'inflicting' injuries on other kids would be a deal breaker for a network I'd think.
Just my opinion. As I said, I'd never thought about till EBI5.