Training in a 'traditional' school and getting hate for 10P moves

I train in what you would call a traditional mainstream BJJ school but I've always had an affinity to the 10P system. So I signed up to MTS and have been studying the system an using it in my sparring sessions. What I really like is that the moves are unorthodox and I find their success rate much higher than using the cookie cutter BJJ moves that everyone in class knows, so I do catch a lot of people off guard. The instructor is actually very supportive of me and doesn't have a problem with me using the techniques but a small percentage of the students seem to take exception even though I try to avoid leg locks and only use what would be considered legal under IBJJF rules.
Despite all this I march forward and continue with my study of the the 10P system.

I train at a traditional school and I am known as the "10th Planet Kid" and I have found them to become more accepting as time went on. There are a couple diehard traditional guys, but for the most part, everyone doesn't mind what I do, as long as I do it correctly and effectively. So I usually get more shit for a move that I don't have a lot of reps in and screw up because I didn't get it right or react to a new response correctly then they assume '10th Planet doesn't work.' Well yeah, any move from any style could fail if your not experienced or your trying new things.

My advice would be to do your signature basic or bread n butter 10pjj moves on people who would doubt it and do other things that people seem to be ignorant about (such as the electric chair) on people who understand you have an unorthodox style. I'm actually starting to get some people to ask about the lockdown or twister (more often the twister) now and it's pretty cool considering beforehand I thought going to a traditional school with my style meant my gi probably would burst into flames attempting 10PJJ in it eventually!

As for the stalling comments: Tell them "YOUR ON TOP! Unless your in my guard, your the one who is supposed to press an attack, I am not stalling by remaining in a safe position while your waiting for me to give you an opening." If they say anything about how you were stalling because they couldn't get you to budge/open up, tell them to learn better attacks/set ups.

Keep doing what works for you!! I train at a traditional BJJ gi based school. I am fortunate that my instructor is very open minded and also likes the 10P system. He encouraged me to really keep working the lockdown series from the half guard, because of my smaller size.

A group of us (including the instructor) will be attending a "Freakahzoid" seminar this weekend.

I feel your pain. I get all of it too... some guys are supportive, some guys are interested in what I'm doing, some guys just want to learn to stop me, some of the coaches are dismissive, some guys would rather not fuck with a guy who's going to put them in lockdowns and rubberguard.

As far as the stalling, I understand to some degree. No one wants to spend all their training time getting frozen into a position they cannot get out of. At the same time, I do sometimes stall, especially if I'm tired. Everyone tells me being a whitebelt is about learning to survive. Well if I get you in an invisible collar and just let you cook for a minute while I rest and you suffer, that's me surviving! Notice you did not tap me while you were cooking in my IC? I just try not to be a dick about it. As soon as I'm ready, I try to advance my position.

Some guys will complain that you are stalling because you took all of 15 seconds before advancing. I say they need to learn patience is part of BJJ too :) If they just settle down a little and stop trying to blast out of everything, I will try to advance on them and then they get their escape opportunities!

I think what makes it worse for me is that the guys I frustrate with my 10p game know damn well they would be crushing me if I played that traditional game they play. So instead of dominating the skinny old guy they are stuck with me pulling my calves on the back of their neck for rounds at a time and stuffing my feet into their face.

I just try to keep in mind that my mat time is also my training partner's mat time. Most of them want to compete in tournaments in the gi where the odds of them needing to defend rubberguard are close to zero. They don't want reps defending my rubberguard, and I can appreciate that.

And of course they always have the option to letting me get on top. My top game is a lot more traditional than my guard. :)

Honestly just pay no mind to those guys. One of the greatest things about jiu jitsu is if something works, it works. As long as your instructor is cool with it you won't have too many problems. I've never been angry at someone trying a technique on me, (unless it's some white belt trying to rip my foot sideways in the least technical way possible)

Sounds like that dude needs a little "encouragement" from the higher ranks. Somebody needs to put his ego in place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jujee

accused me of trying to destroy his knee

---

Damn strait. Isn't that what jiu jitsu is all about? This is why we have tapping, to practice dangerous techniques safely.

I have to say though, I rolled with a Gracie student the other day and he used the basics to neutralize all my full guard attacks. I was pretty impressed. Their "10,000 hours" spending time on strictly basics can lead to some powerful jiu jitsu. I got so pissed that I disengaged with a technical stand-up and pulled donkey guard. (lol)

As frustrating as it must be to train at a gym like that, there are certainly some benefits. Keep grinding friend.

Greetings,
I lurk here normally - have been a bit more active and vocal over the holidays.
I train at a Gracie school and always have (different ones as I have moved). I learned lockdown as a stall technique for draining the energy and controlling the pass. then to transition to the "old school" stuff. I saw the power of the bottom half guard game and found 10P system and it clicked for my half guard game. I am not particularly flexible so bottom half, truck, spider web, and prison guard is my main take aways. Anyways - I have pulled all of these in Gracie schools (including with a couple of them) and I have never had anyone get upset with me for it.
It sounds like the guy simply did not know the move and was over reacting because as you, as a lower belt, put him in a position he did not know and he felt embarrassed (my simple observation of course).
Keep training and enjoying your rolls and working in new stuff. As long as you are controlled and deliberate then do what works! My 2 cents anyways

I train at ATOS in the Gi and I have used the lockdown since day one with little to no issues. If your coach is okay with it, keep doing what you are doing. The guys that don't like it or lecture you have their own issues to work out. I will say this, I have personally popped 3 guys knees with my lockdown when whipping really strong and they try to fight against it. I didn't think it was hard on the knee, but believe me it can be bad if you get the torque on it, or if their joints are weak.

I'd say just to keep it up and work on the stuff that is legal in your school, at your belt level. Try to get some good training partners that will let you work on whatever you want on the side, without giving you a hard time.

I get some guff as well but I don't let it bother me, anything my professor doesn't say I can't use I will use

avoid the naysayers

For me getting started I sort of had the benefit of knowing there were haters/doubters/uninformed well meaning folks out there on the System, so when I'd scout out a school I would be upfront and say I was a fan, but that I was also looking to explore all perspectives and views on grappling (some instructors will tend to relax when you present it that way so that they don't feel like you're the kid who comes to class and half heartedly goes through drills so that you can get to rolling and try to hit another electric chair or truck on the other students).

When I went to class if it was nogi I would wear a generic rashguard, I would have my 10th Planet patch on the shorts but I wouldn't try to come across as "only wanting to do 10thpjj techs". Once I got comfortable with a school or club that I was visiting I would then wear my mix of 10thpjj rashguards and start to open up with lockdown truck more. I think once you establish yourself that way even the naysayers will give you some room to work with and actually watch to see if you're able to make the moves work for you.

With regards to the higher belt who got upset with you, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he might've had a bad day prior going in, and then having you (a lower blood oh no!) pass his guard with the sweep and take top may have just him off, and/or maybe he's heard the stereotypes on lockdown or stoner control being tough on the knees (perhaps he had a prior injury, or maybe is just a bit older and trying to watch his health). I personally think if he had something to say it would've been better served in private to you instead of in the open during class based on what I read.

Either way, at the end of the day you're a student and customer at the school too, and you have a right (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone) to discover your path, and if there are higher belts or students who can't accept that then maybe they just aren't folks you want to be rolling with at least in the short term until they cool down. I think one other benefit I've had is the wide array of clubs and schools I'm able to visit, so if things ever get heated at one place (which is rare) I can always visit the other place or two to gt fresh exposure to other teammates and let things cool down.

Hope that helps a bit, keep the faith in the system, don't limit your perspectives, and I think one day you'll have your moment to shine on the big stage too :cool:

I actually thought for a second I posted this! haha. I'm the exact situation as you. I field endless 10th Planet jokes relating to me. I have short legs so sometimes my rubber guard gets called out because its harder to get the top leg in mission control as far around a broader opponent and I'm told that I'm unable to play rubber guard. I get told to work on the fundamentals all the time as well...literally I'm identical to you. I would just recommend staying with your traditional school for the time being and learning those fundamentals and slipping in some of the 10P stuff when you can. I doubt there is a 10P location in your area, otherwise I'm sure you would have made the switch. Just continue to do your thing, you're doing the best you can in the given situation and it sounds like your game is rounding out nicely with traditional BJJ coupled with 10P.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jujee

I train in what you would call a traditional mainstream BJJ school but I've always had an affinity to the 10P system. So I signed up to MTS and have been studying the system an using it in my sparring sessions. What I really like is that the moves are unorthodox and I find their success rate much higher than using the cookie cutter BJJ moves that everyone in class knows, so I do catch a lot of people off guard. The instructor is actually very supportive of me and doesn't have a problem with me using the techniques but a small percentage of the students seem to take exception even though I try to avoid leg locks and only use what would be considered legal under IBJJF rules.

I particularly like the lockdown position because a lot of my training partners don't know the correct escape and attempt the usual half guard passes to no avail. I can tell they get frustrated and I receive a lot of comments like "you're stalling", "that is not going to work", "you should be working on (insert traditional move here)" etc. Despite all this I march forward and continue with my study of the the 10P system.

The situation got heated the other day when we were sparring hard and I managed to hit and electric chair. As Eddie says I got him in the position, tested his flexibility for about 10 seconds (no tap so assumed he was flexible) so I passed to stoner control. He immediately got up pushed me and accused me of trying to destroy his knee which I refuted. I attempted to explain that it was a banana split type submission but he wasn't having any of it. He proceeded to lecture me about how I should no not attempt 'advanced techniques' and focus on fundamentals. (He was a higher belt which compounded the problem I'm assuming, egos etc). The odd thing is if that was his arm getting crank he would have tapped and there would be no further discussion.

The whole situation has left a sour taste in my mouth. Do any of you train at a traditional BJJ school and have these problems? If so how do you go about working on your 10P techniques. I do enjoy the school and have fun training but I wish I could express myself on the mat without feeling like some sort of infidel.:mad:

---

Welcome to our world. For 2.5 years we were just like you, secretly training 10thplanet system on our own, in our garage. But things also compound the problem because you see, I don't even train. So ALL of Houston, people still trying to figure us out. My daughter start doing 10thplanet techniques at 10 years old and she is being taught this brand of jiu jitsu by a guy who doesn't even train.....which is me. So do you think people laugh at us behind our back at the gym and at tournaments, yes they do. We just keep the pace. But once she starts beating everyone that stands in front of her, the laughing and side talking and the smirk all starting to disappear. Although she trains at a traditional gym, my daughter is known as "that 10thplanet girl" everywhere we go in Texas. Its not an easy route to take but its what we chose. Keep the pace bro. Keep the pace.

It was a mixed bag for me early on but over time, the better you get at it, the less "stall-y" it'll seem. Catch every guy in that move and believe me, it will become accepted and even welcomed in due time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

It was a mixed bag for me early on but over time, the better you get at it, the less "stall-y" it'll seem. Catch every guy in that move and believe me, it will become accepted and even welcomed in due time.

---

Arman knows what's up.

Quote:

---

So do you think people laugh at us behind our back at the gym and at tournaments, yes they do. We just keep the pace. But once she starts beating everyone that stands in front of her, the laughing and side talking and the smirk all starting to disappear.

---

Heck yeah, in time we prove ourselves right

I used to get hate from my traditional BJJ school I attend, until I started using the 10p techniques effectively against my training partners. I still get an occasional joking reference from some of them. The other day I was instructed to drill my 'favorite jiu jitsu submission' after my coach instructed me to do the drill he rephrased what he said & said 'Do a move that actually works, I don't want to see a twister or anything like that, that shit don't work.'

I competed recently for my first time & basically used all 10p techniques & flows to take the silver medal in my division. My biggest motivation going into the competition was to prove to some of my training partners that the 10p system works. Next class I had some of the same people that have made remarks in the past ask me what I did in competition, & I showed them vasrious techniques like the Meat Hook Triangle, electric chair, etc. My point is slowly but surely the 10p system will speak for itself, because it works.

The electric chair can injure the knee if you aren't careful. Just pay attention to what you are doing for the sake of yourself and your training partners.

I love hearing ronin stories :-)

Part of it is being resourceful too. The only thing that I've literally been YELLED at about is going for the twister. I've been chewed out for doing calf-cranks too, particularly at IBJJF-compliant schools (i.e. schools that only let you do moves legal by ranks). Does that mean I'm gonna stop going to the truck? HEEEEELLLLLL NO. What's beautiful is that banana splits and crotch rippers are IBJJF legal at white belt, so I've been using the opportunities where I don't train at a 10th planet school to refine the hell out of that attack. Coupled with the option of transitioning to the back, I've been having some good success.

Unless they straight up chew you out and BAN you from doing a move, do it every god damn time. By the sound of it too, it doesn't seem like it's your instructor that has a problem, but some other student. To quote Ricky Bobby, "with all do respect and I DO mean with all due respect," screw that dude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sean applegate

The electric chair can injure the knee if you aren't careful. Just pay attention to what you are doing for the sake of yourself and your training partners.

---

100% agree. Work it like any submission, in essence making it where you can catch it without being super explosive and risking injury. This is the path to mastery.

Thankfully I still haven't encountered any trouble. My guess is that your training partner was a little upset that a white belt got him in a move that he doesn't like. So that said, I would just work my 10th planet moves on other white belts who don't have delicate egos. That might help keep the peace. And if your instructor doesn't like it, you can always invite guys to your place to train.

I guess I am fortunate in that I have not dealt with any direct hate or negativity with any of the gyms I have bounced around to around here. I never hide the fact that I am 10th Planet and don't alter my game based on what others might think. But along the lines of what Arman said, it's hard to argue if you electric chair sweep everybody.

What I typically get is instructors that will just show how they would defeat everything. I take it with a grain of salt and keep doing my thing. More motivation to get my own team together.

Quote:

---

100% agree. Work it like any submission, in essence making it where you can catch it without being super explosive and risking injury. This is the path to mastery.

---

Usually what I do is if I see them over-resist on the chair or sweep I'll do it in a smooth controlled motion to minimize pressure on the knee (same with the truck, depending on the position of the leg lace and the pressure you exert it can become a knee bar like sub too). When I'm caught in the electric chair I tend to go with the sweep, I know for sure people in the past have popped or popped knees before on the chair.

Quote:

---

What I typically get is instructors that will just show how they would defeat everything. I take it with a grain of salt and keep doing my thing. More motivation to get my own team together.

---

Pat I think I know where you're referencing (no names, as he treated us well and I had a good time there while it lasted). On one hand you admire them for wanting to figure out how to defend it (just like when a student asks how to get out of a leg triangle or armbar) but on the other hand sometimes you wish they would be open minded to the system and then any defense they did concoct you could take more seriously.

I train at the Gracie school in the mornings and have no issues using 10P techniques at all. I get asked to demonstrate lockdown and RG techniques all the time. Head instructor is a black belt under Royler and his favorite way to finish omoplata is the Hazelett(although he doesn't call it that). Only submission I am not allowed to do is the heel hook, but they are not against the heel hook at all. Head instructor trained sambo for 8 years and heel hook is one of his strongest subs. They just do not do them. Other than that they welcome any techniques and anyone from any association.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pat Campagnola

I guess I am fortunate in that I have not dealt with any direct hate or negativity with any of the gyms I have bounced around to around here. I never hide the fact that I am 10th Planet and don't alter my game based on what others might think. But along the lines of what Arman said, it's hard to argue if you electric chair sweep everybody.

What I typically get is instructors that will just show how they would defeat everything. I take it with a grain of salt and keep doing my thing. More motivation to get my own team together.

---

It's weird how fast it breaks down into that fake kung fu style stuff with some instructors. "See man I would just tiger-paw your neck right there!" "Oh yeah Bro, but that leaves you open for my Death Knuckle right under your Rib, there see son!"

There are counters to everything, and nothing works all the time. But lots of instructors who know none of the system want to talk about how easy it is to defeat forget all that shit and start talking like it's a waste of time to train it cause none of it works.

My instructor is awesome. Always encouraging learning from anywhere, and everywhere. Just went to the seminar that Geo Martinez put on in Titusville Florida, where my instructor also participated and was my partner. He is about as old school as it gets in term of when he got his black belt, but has never hindered his students or himself in exploring every corner of Jiu Jitsu. I mean, thats what it ultimately comes down to, its all jiu jitsu. How can you hate on that? Whats awesome about this art is that everyone puts there personality into it on the mat, as distinctive as a fingerprint. I use several 10th planet techniques and have been watching and applying MTS as well as what is considered "Old school" techniques. Gi, Nogi, old, new, whatever, its all jiu jitsu and I cannot see a good reason to limit oneself in any of it when it comes to exploring the art.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

Does that mean I'm gonna stop going to the truck? HEEEEELLLLLL NO. What's beautiful is that banana splits and crotch rippers are IBJJF legal at white belt, so I've been using the opportunities where I don't train at a 10th planet school to refine the hell out of that attack.

---

The arm bar, kimura, and americana are all legal from truck too

We have a guy that has destroyed multiple knees with lockdown. It's kinda both ways. The damage comes with a powerful whip and the top dude being stubborn. At the end of the day it his job to recognize the structural threat, and concede the sweep. The pop usually comes when they are pushing up, and back in to fight the sweep. I'm really careful when I have a motivated momo on Wednesday rolling like it's the Adcc trials. If he will let you break his leg instead of lose a sweep, you can forget about tapping. Shows you what you're dealing with. An upper belt should def call dude out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serge Bunimovich

I train at the Gracie school in the mornings and have no issues using 10P techniques at all. I get asked to demonstrate lockdown and RG techniques all the time. Head instructor is a black belt under Royler and his favorite way to finish omoplata is the Hazelett(although he doesn't call it that). Only submission I am not allowed to do is the heel hook, but they are not against the heel hook at all. Head instructor trained sambo for 8 years and heel hook is one of his strongest subs. They just do not do them. Other than that they welcome any techniques and anyone from any association.

---

Yeah, JW seems like a good dude, but he has been guilty of some jiujistu politicking too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojoplata

The arm bar, kimura, and americana are all legal from truck too

---

The bouncer is money. It's also the 2nd best sub from baseball bat control. Everybody sleeps on the bouncer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jerry Walker

Yeah, JW seems like a good dude, but he has been guilty of some jiujistu politicking too.

---

I don't know, bro. Never heard anything but nice things about him. He has done a lot for jiu jitsu growth in Missouri. More than anyone else, IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serge Bunimovich

I don't know, bro. Never heard anything but nice things about him. He has done a lot for jiu jitsu growth in Missouri. More than anyone else, IMO.

---

I won't dispute that, but I do have a couple of specific examples.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bobby rivers

The bouncer is money. It's also the 2nd best sub from baseball bat control. Everybody sleeps on the bouncer.

---

You have a video link to this sub? Not finding any bouncer in the tech guide.