Seriously, Polaris needs to use EBI rules... these draws are just terrible. A Perfect 8 Matches, 8 draws.
There has never been a draw in the history of EBI... why isn't everyone using this ruleset yet?
The last two fights were fun, Tonon is the man.
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Seriously, Polaris needs to use EBI rules... these draws are just terrible. A Perfect 8 Matches, 8 draws.
There has never been a draw in the history of EBI... why isn't everyone using this ruleset yet?
The last two fights were fun, Tonon is the man.
Seriously. And 20 minutes between matches is ridiculous. I love how during EBI I can barely squeeze in a bathroom break. Nonstop action.
Different concepts. EBI is a tournament so there must be a winner, while Polaris is all superfights. Not sure how sporting it would be to gift AJ Agazarm Jake Shields' back after being so thoroughly dominated the rest of the match. Would you really call him the winner if he happened to have the fastest escape time?
Ok that's a fair argument. I can see that potentially spoiling a dominant performance. Excellent answer. I think you just changed my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Guillotine
Man changes other man's mind on the internet. This is a historic day!Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
There's flaws to literally every rule set you can think of aside from no time limit submission only (which could potentially be the least entertaining of all if it's too evenly matched). I can't believe I just saw a respectful internet debate resolved. Kudos to both of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Guillotine
i don't know...
i am willing to accept all the hate, but i'm not a big fan of EBI overtime rules.
so we had 8 draws, but we also had 8 very exciting matches which i absolutely loved watching. (perhaps it's just me, but i don't necessarily care about having an "official" winner at the end of each match. especially in a grappling competition). as a matter of fact, i think it leaves things more exciting for rematches and "what if?" questions.
we all know and can tell who the dominant person was, in most cases... let's remember our favorite rematch of mr. bravo vs gracie.
why i don't really like the overtime rules?
i don't think it proves much. we just saw two guys or ladies going at it from all sorts of angles, positions and transitions... if neither was able to submit, then so be it. why let the person take the back control and let them ride out the time (joe soto kind of did that, and i recall a bit of "hate" on the forums for that).
also, the spiderweb position for the armbar favors a certain style of grappling. i would argue that not everyone is comfortable with having their arm wrapped around the leg.
yes i know the the position, and i understand the purpose, but if you consider a grappler with a judo background or perhaps catch wrestling, they would be more comfortable having their preferred way to control the arm, without the leg control.
tl;dr
keep Polaris rules as is. draws aren't a a big deal, because the matches are still exciting and now we might want to see a couple of rematches. i'm not really into EBI overtimes rules in general.
I've seen guys start without hooking the leg. I'm not an expert but I think the guy on top can choose for himself if he wants to hook the leg.Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad ko
if so, i stand corrected... i thought there was one match where the ref. asked the competitor to hook the leg. (i could be 100% wrong). well, other than that i still think overtime is not necessary, IMO. riding out the clock (as a tricky opponent would do), brings the point system back in some way during, perhaps, the most crucial moments of the match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
i will stand by my guns on this one :) a draw is a draw in sub-only event. if anything, it adds to future marketing opportunities for rematches and leaves us (as fans) wondering who'd truly win next time.
i'd love to see jake vs aj rematch... yeah the slapping got a little silly... but now i must see a submission there. the overtime rules would not satisfy my curiosity in this case :)
I think I remember the match you are referring to. I interpreted it as the ref asking if they guy wanted to hook the leg (making sure he knew he was allowed to do that).Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad ko
You can't really have draws in a tournament format, so for EBI you have to have some way to resolve the thing with a winner. The only options I can think of is to either use points or use judges decisions. Both of which would be far worse that the problems inherent in the EBI OT rules.
I agree 1000% with this. I find the hatred of draws to be very short-sighted, and it strikes me as an annoying offshoot of the jingoistic American sports culture that demands an official loser at all times. All of the Polaris matches, except maybe Grippo-Frazzato and Geo-Tosta, were tough and highly contested matches even though there was no sub finish, and you can ascribe a clear winner to most (my opinion: miyao, satava, matuda, shields were clear winners, while I'd give a very very slight edge to Mendes and Palhares). The problem with adding rules to officially designate a non-sub winner (such as points, OT, or refs decision) is that the rules inevitably influence the strategy of the competitors, as we see to terrible effect with IBJJF. My suggestion: designate finals matches and main events to be no time limit sub-only and do whatever tiebreaking rules are necessary for other matches/tournament rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad ko
So in the case of a dominating performance, why not have a clear winner decision? Draws on close matches, judges decision on clear victories. This would solve the issue. As far as Bravo/Gracie II... Eddie had the clear victory.
Polaris contacted me about doing a Polaris tournament with EBI rules and asked if I would be a guest ref :)
Beautiful!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
I think no time limit is the optimal strategy. The reason why it's been limited, from what I've seen, is time of broadcasts and tournament venue hours, meaning extra staffing, resources needed, logistics, etc. It seems to be the real answer as to why we don't see more of it. I would be content to see EBI or Polaris include a super fight with no time limit, perhaps as a headliner. No time limit is the only way to guarantee that a competitors strategy is perfectly aligned with attaining the submission. No stalling, strategizing your escape times, stuff like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Guillotine
In some ways I agree. But then I'll also say why I don't care and still love the EBI rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad ko
I think the EBI overtime rules actually flip the sub only thing on its head if you don't get a sub and puts extra weight on the positional control part. But I like that and I think it's cool. I also can see the "unrealistic" part because if you stall well enough to make it to OT against rafa mendes, you can start somewhere that you'd never have a prayer of getting otherwise.
But Eddie bravo said it so well on Inside BJJ this week. He made the EBI rules to reward the AUDIENCE! And that's what is missing in the other events. Eddie seems like the only guy in the game that understands that in a superfight format most athletes prefer a draw over a loss, so they'll accept a draw once things look like they aren't going their way. Eddie is the only one gangster enough to say NO FUCKING MONEY for you if you don't get a submission, period. And winner take all. a lot of promoters would have caved and given Andre Galvao the money he wanted to show, but Eddie didn't. Eddie knows that most grapplers aren't taking their own responsibility for making these events exciting for the audience so he's made it so it doesn't matter. He's taken it out of the athlete's hands and he's forcing things to be more exciting for the viewer with the rules he's set up.
I love it
I think there's a somewhat false belief that a sub will happen if the competitors just want it to happen badly enough, which to me is akin to Dana White's "never leave it in the hands of the judges" mantra. Sure there are situations where competitors will play to the rules and not strategize as much for the finish (lots of IBJJF matches, Denny vs. Orchard in EBI 2), but by and large there just aren't going to be many finishes when two high-level competitors of comparable skill get together in a timed match. Even in IBJJF there's a fairly high finishing rate in early rounds, but in the semis and finals is when it degenerates into a sweeps contest. The more high level athletes EBI brings in, the more overtimes you're going to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Nall