Interactive Rubber Guard Flowchart/10P Ronins/Future 10P Düsseldorf

(if you're too lazy to read: rubberguardflowchart.neocities.org beta version)

Hello everyone,
first I want to introduce Jonas Schäfer and me:
My name is Anton Krischer, I'm 22 years old and part of the 10P community since march. For over 8 years im doing "traditional/japanese" Jiu jitsu and since ca. 3 years we have been training nogi-grappling at our academy, learning techniques from the internet and books. As my master did not have the time to teach these nogi-classes anymore, I became in charge of giving these lessons, although these classes were for free and we met to try out techniques together. So I also started to watch techniques on the internet and last december i discovered Eddie and the 10thPlanet. In the future i want to represent the 10thPlanet system here in Düsseldorf, Germany and become a Moon.
Feel free to check out the website of the academy we train at:
http://www.kaminari.de/

One of my students/partners is Jonas Schäfer. He is currently brownbelt in JJJ and also very interested in the 10thPlanet system. When we started to practice 10P techs he showed me a rubberguard flowchart he found on the internet:

https://www.gliffy.com/publish/4297117/

Then we noticed that some techniques were missing and we came up the idea to make a new flow chart which is more complete. We started to collect missing techniques and Jonas searched for tools to create a flowchart.
Today he came up with a beta version of a flowchart which is not just a picture, but also provides you with little explanations for every technique and forwards you to a Youtube-Video where it is explained.

As we both are no rubber guard-gurus, we would like to ask for your help to complete this project. We will provide a Google doc, so If you find some wrong connections or names, spelling mistakes, missing techniques or those which are no longer used, just write it down in the doc, Jonas will try to keep it up to date.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...=2&pli=1#gid=0

Now see by yourself what he has created

Hey,
my name is Jonas (what a surprise) and I am 18 years old. As Anton already said I've been doing traditional Jiu Jitsu for some time as well and took part in the nogi classes at our school for most of the time they were available, too.

I picked up 10pjj about 2 months ago and one thing that really helped me learn (and remember) the basics of the rubber guard was the visualization provided by the flow chart already posted.
But after devoting quite some time to looking up new stuff on YouTube/MTS Anton and I noticed that quite a lot of techniques were missing in said flow chart.
So we decided to make a new one which's current progress can be seen here:

http://rubberguardflowchart.neocities.org

The stuff that's dashed I'm unsure of whether it is correct or not, the rest should be self-explanatory.
As I am still pretty new to the system any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

That's some work lol. Nice one

Man these are impressive, thank you! Not familiar with some of what's there too so will have to look into it.

This is really cool, great job. I love the fact that there are also links to videos, very helpful.

Good stuff! I can't seem to access the Google doc though.

Thank you guys, we appreciate your support and hope to get some help from all the RG geniuses.
@logan: yeah i noticed it too, we will fix that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Logan Cook

Good stuff! I can't seem to access the Google doc though.

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This one should be working properly, seems like the link got messed up during formatting or something.

Thanks for the kind words everyone, glad you like it so far.

Can you make a jpg of the flow chart and post it on here?

New update is live, added a few more transitions and submissions but mainly descriptions and links.
Again it would be greatly appreciated for someone far more knowledgeable than me to look over the thing, not only the constellation but also the descriptions.
Especially the whole brackish waters, dead orchard, dead orchard with hand on the mat (I didn't find a name for it on the webs, I'd suggest giving it an own name, please take a look at the bottom of the google doc) and muddy waters situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

Can you make a jpg of the flow chart and post it on here?

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Sure, though it is still a bit from being completed and might contain some errors.

I'll link the png from the website, it should automatically update here whenever I change it over there.

http://rubberguardflowchart.neocitie...ubberGuard.png

Cool.

With all the arms starting out as expanded, the chart is a bit intimidating and tough to follow.

If it's possible to work with a mindmap program that can expand each section once clicked, that would make this a lot simpler to follow and see the basic flow from a first glance. So for example just showing all the control positions. Then if someone wants to look closer into a certain position, they can click it and it would expand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben Eddy

Cool.

With all the arms starting out as expanded, the chart is a bit intimidating and tough to follow.

If it's possible to work with a mindmap program that can expand each section once clicked, that would make this a lot simpler to follow and see the basic flow from a first glance. So for example just showing all the control positions. Then if someone wants to look closer into a certain position, they can click it and it would expand.

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I have been thinking about that as well, but the program I'm currently using doesn't allow for collapsing/expanding sections.
I've also not found any software doing so properly for trees with multiple interconnections and not only simple parent child relationship type progressions.


If anybody here knows a program that is capable of that and furthermore is free or cheap, idealy allowing for easy sharing as well as adding tooltips and links please give me a hint. :p

Ideas i have for simplifying the current flowchart are making a toned down version, only featuring the most important/simpler positions transitions and submissions or breaking it down into multiple flowcharts, basically artificially adding a collapse/expand function though that would be a lot of work i think.
Another thing that might help is creating some sort of mini wiki for the techniques but that's a bit more work intensive and not something I'll be doing till the flowchart itself is done.

If you have any other suggestions please do post them.

Hi,

About my BJJ background:
I used to train in Marin County near San Francisco and had some exposure to rubber guard 10 years ago. I used it quite extensively as i had very flexible and strong legs relative to my upper body. Now looking into training again, i rolled a few times at different gyms and was trying to organize in my head my limited rubber guard techniques. Your flow chart is exactly what I was looking to create.

About how I can help:
I work in quantitative trading and am used to managing and exploring complex data. With any application/analysis tool, the key is to use technologies that keep development efforts low relative to the use-cases of the data. I was looking to implement privately for myself what you had done using Neo4J, a graph database. It would allow doing exactly the analysis and dynamic sub flow chart representation as suggested by the other forum members.

A graph database represents every datapoint as either a node or an edge (a line between nodes). Each control position can be represented as a node and each transition as an edge. Each node and edge can have properties and labels associated with it, that make it easy for filtering and exploration. "Paths" between control positions several steps apart can be queried easily, say, starting at guard, show me all the ways to get to jiu claw (which involves transversing several control positions to get there). Alternatively, nodes can be filtered by labels, such as "essential" to "Advanced" to show simplified graphs. Properties on each node or graph can contain text, links to videos etc.

I was going to do this anyways, so if you're interested we could collaborate.

Hey Cecil,
that sounds really awesome! Jonas was thinking of using flash to create a collapsing and expanding chart( like master Ben Eddy suggested), but we learned that the flash support by firefox and some other browsers will be shut down in the near future. The software you are using seems to be a really nice tool to create the type of flowchart we all are searching for :)
I will tell Jonas that you are interested to collaborate. He is more into the software and data stuff so you both can discuss what will be neccessary to create the chart with Neo4J.
Thanks for you support Cecil! :)

Best regards from Germany, Anton

Hey,

sorry for taking so long to reply, of course we're interested in collaborating.
I took a look at Neo4j and from what I've seen it's pretty much exactly what i had in mind when asking for other software solutions (although I don't have a clue on how to work with it for now lol). Especially the option for filtering on top of the dynamic nature is amazing. One thing i'm concerned about though is whether you have the possibility to export charts so that one can view them simply using his browser (best case even on mobile?), because otherwise it doesn't really make sense to use such a powerful tool in the first place when the goal is public availability.
I also thought about just creating a shitload of different charts with the service i was already using and connecting them via hyperlinks, but I gotta admit the sheer amount of time needed for that kept me away from it for now.

They key is to represent the flow chart as a "graph". This can be done using traditional databases or data structures, but as you can see, the work required is significant. A flow chart is intrinsically a graph, and using a technology that closely mirrors the data model makes the work easier.
It's not that "powerful", just a different perspective on the traditional database model, which happens to work for this use case.

If you are familiar with the Panama papers, they used Linkurios for visualization and reporting, with Neo4J as a back-end to represent the data. A similar model would work.

Exporting permutations of the graph would be fairly trivial as well.

I'm going to map a basic rubber guard workflow so I can show you something.

You forgot muddy waters! :-)

Hey Eddie,
I just saw your Instagram post, we are super honored that you shared the flowchart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

You forgot muddy waters! :-)

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Muddy Waters is in the flowchart, look at the left bottom, right between Invisible Collar and the Dead Orchard
If you see any other mistakes let us know :)
We are looking forward to work with Cecil and Improve the flowchart so it isn't so overhelming anymore

Best Regards,
Anton

@ Cecil
Oh man, I've only been at university for a few weeks now and I already have had my fair share of things being called trivial that none really knew how to do haha.
Jokes aside I'm glad that's not gonna be a problem. I'd love to see an example of how it might work out if you're already creating a basic flowchart.
I'll also have quite a bit of time on my hands the next few months as I just got my meniscus patched up, so no training for me.
I'll have a look into the basics of how to work with Neo4J though I don't know how you plan on splitting up the work required for making the final flowchart. I'd suggest using a more direct form of messaging (fb?) if we were to really get started.


@ Eddie
Muddy Waters is definitely in there, it may be lacking a few transitions and submissions but it's there nonetheless (just don't start looking for anything Jersey related yet^^).

Hey guys, i would liek to revive this thread and give you an update. Jonas added a basic version of the Flowchart to
https://rubberguardflowchart.neocities.org/
so it is also usefull for beginners and not so overwhelming, like Ben said.

Unfortunately it would be very much work to create a flowchart with Neo4J as Cecil suggested. Please let us know what you guys think and also contact us if you have any idea to improve the flowchart.
Also Jonas experiences relatively high traffic on the side. Maybe it has to do with me showing it to 10P West LA and Ralf Warneking or some kind of bot is visiting the site.
Cheers!