10th Planet and Army Combatives

I am in the Army and from time to time teach my Soldiers Army Combatives(LVL 1). Per the standard MACP (Modern Army Combatives Program) training I teach them some cross collar chokes and grabbing sleeves and belts to aid in maniuplating your opponent...but, let's face it not every enemy in the field of battle is going to have a long sleeve shirt or coat on, some body armor or even a chest rig to grab ahold of. Heck, I remember having to go one on one with a combative patient who was butt naked in my aid station. That was a life altering event.
So, I teach them a little bit of our sweet science. Now, I would never want to be in a combat situation and have to be in a guard top or bottom scenario but, maybe someone could have my back or I could find myself in a half-guard bottom situation. I have showed them the lock-down to whip-up and with boots on...that is exactly what it is. There is no way that leg is getting out. I have even gone so far as to train them to grab for a knife or weapon of opportunity with their base hand while having that arm hooked across the back in the whip-up(one reason why I always keep a knife on my chest rig). Maybe I am going a bit far with what Eddie had in mind but I think that I owe it to my troops to teach them anything that could aid in their survival if the situation arises.

I'm curious to hear what you all have to say about it.

What is the expected skill level of the enemy combatants?

I think the lockdown is definatly street/field applicable you might consider some transitions to dog fight. I think that is a good option in these types of senarios not for the sweeps from there but for the easy transition back to the feet where they have a better chance at employing there weapons systems.

You never know. With the availability of multi-media now-a-days anything is possible. I worked with some Iraqi Army guys who were on the Iraqi Judo Team and were legit. I guess it would have to come down to who cherishes their own life enough to destroy another. Fight or flight.

Yeah, I have gone over the transition to dogfight to disengagement then going for their weapon. Another I go over is a modified gangster lean mount to gain compliance and arm control.

I mean, if a guy was flattening you out in a fight, clearly the lockdown would be a great asset to have. Otherwise though, if your opponent isn't capable of performing such a feet then it's less likely that they could get a wizzer in and dominate any loose half guard scenario either.

I do think though, that the dog fight position is vital. It occurs in all kinds of crazy scrambles.

Somebody needs to update it. I've worked with a lot of guys who believe that 2 week crash course makes them a hand to hand expert. 80% of the time when in guard they swim themselves into a triangle. They tell me this is what they are taught to do in guard. I understand that the time focused on this can't be a priority but I think more would be useful to them. Even a supplement to regular pt. I don't know too much on the subject, so I just wanna ask, is there anything that you are mandated to teach that is just ridiculous? In your opinion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Somebody needs to update it. I've worked with a lot of guys who believe that 2 week crash course makes them a hand to hand expert. 80% of the time when in guard they swim themselves into a triangle. They tell me this is what they are taught to do in guard. I understand that the time focused on this can't be a priority but I think more would be useful to them. Even a supplement to regular pt. I don't know too much on the subject, so I just wanna ask, is there anything that you are mandated to teach that is just ridiculous? In your opinion

---

Yeah, the guard pass taught in MACP level1 is bogus. I teach it because it is what I am told to teach. But, I add the "however," and show a more effective pass and tell them the best thing is to never end up in guard top. To go for a weapon or just be super violent and demand a better position at all costs. As far as I know the manual on combatives is/has recently been rewritten or modified to correct weaknesses. For the most part MACP level 1 gives a Solider a very basic foundation but by no means are they certified and stamped "B.A." In my spare time I teach a basic MMA class here using MWR facilities. On occasion I will get a guy in that is like "I'm MACP level 1" and I tend to have to spend more time with them helping them relearn and repair their "training scars" drilled into them.

If I get a chance before I leave here I will make a video demonstrating some of what I teach in my Combatives class. I got the idea for this when I went to a seminar that had Tim Kennedy and he was doing a "jiu jitsu for combat" kinda thing. It really got me thinking about all the "what ifs" and unknowns of hand to hand combat and how I could tie it in with what I teach.

When i went through Army Basic training 7 years ago i was a blue belt in BJJ and i remember my drill sgt got in my guard to show everyone the basic transition to side control by underhooking my one of my legs and and leaning all his weight on my leg and right there i said " Drill sgt i wouldnt recommend doing that" and he said why? Keep in mind this is 2003 so BJJ was popular but not like it is now, so not as many people knew anything. Well after he said "why" i showed he could get triangled, and he said "no you cant, show me" So here comes the biggest mistake i could of ever made!!!! I triangled him and he just about passed out, remember this is in front of the whole company (4 platoons) needles to say he wasnt happy and i paid for it the rest of basic training!!!! But i had some bragging rights the rest of boot camp!!! "Hey thats the guy that almost choked out that drill sgt" Anyway its a funny story to look back now!!!

Im actually really bummed how much our military, police forces , fbi ,lacks the basic knowledge of self defense and training. Ive had several service men , police officers, travel through my gym to train, from marines to army , some former sec. forces from afgan. and they really seem to rely on there weapons more then anything. I love that our soldiers are doing a job where ever they are. you have my respect entirely. Just wish you could be safe in any situation presented to you . but it seems they are rushed through basic training . Having just vague knowledge from maybe high school wrestling or its hard to really grasp anything usful from that fast training they are put through.

I'm teaching a lot of military in my classes plus we've just contracted to teach on base here. I've posted before that if the moons want to increase the work ethic in their classes to reach out more to their local men and women at arms. Because 10th Planet is an ever evolving hybred I would be very interested in any modifications to the system that blends your current training and real world needs. You guys are awesome and I would love to see a formal 10th Planet military platform developed. I would be very interested in your thoughts and posts.

I spent 10years in the Army ad taught all the combatives the Army had to offer (as a check the blick thing). I made it a regular part of PT to teach them above and beyond what the Army prescribed (and yes some of it was related to 10th Planet). Keep doing what your are doing. Dont be satisfied with teaching to standard. Make sure they get what the are required to get and then take them as far as you can..good shit

K

Iv been training with a doctor and a soldier lately. The guy whos teaching us tailors some of the class for them. Really interesting stuff. The subtle control thing for the doctors, controlling patients without harming them is really cool.

The police force at home has contacted us, as a couple of their members got a hiding recently and they dont feel their training is adequate to defend themselves. As has already been said, a short course is going to do little against a person habitually involved in violence. In their word, they wanted to "learn how to scrap". We can definitely arrange that for them, but Im sure there is better things we could be teaching them as well.

Any info or ideas you guys have would be much appreciated.

I only have a month or so left down here with this unit. I am in an Aviation unit so when I ask to do some MMA/Combatives training I get the whole "Um..we are aviation, we don't do that." So, from time to time when I have "Sergeant's Time Training" I do some hip pocket Combatives training. I just see alot of things using my past 12+ years in two branches of the military and try to incorporate my love for MMA and 10pjj into my training. I am by no means an expert at MACP or 10pjj, I just feel that knowledge of any kind is worthless unless you share it. I would love to work with someone on developing at "Street or H2H" version of 10pjj.

Clayton with your knowledge of Combative training and my knowledge of 10th Planet I think we could definitely come up with something when you back in town in October. Great thread, very interesting.

another class for saturdays.....10th planet combat 101..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jon Helton

Clayton with your knowledge of Combative training and my knowledge of 10th Planet I think we could definitely come up with something when you back in town in October. Great thread, very interesting.

---

Totally man!!! Got my brain on overdrive right now! I will be back around the 2nd week of October.

Attachment 371

This is a photo from the MACP manual showing the previously talked about guard pass. Notice the knife edged hand cutting down between the guy on bottoms leg. Now, they tell us to keep our shoulder shrugged and curl the arm around the hip and grab the pocket/belt to prevent the triangle...easier said than done when someone is yanking on your neck and hipping up. This is just one example of what I don't like to teach.

I don't know, if you really emphasize posture during the pass, it'll still be manageable without having to go against the curriculum. Yeah, I know, easier said than done when somebody is yanking on you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

I don't know, if you really emphasize posture during the pass, it'll still be manageable without having to go against the curriculum. Yeah, I know, easier said than done when somebody is yanking on you.

---

When I was going through MACP training, anytime someone would attempt that pass on me I would just scoot my butt out, hip into them a bit, reach up grab cross collar and break their posture. Now, when I tried that on one of the instructors (brown belt BJJ) he was much faster and more technical. Again...if I was ever in THAT situation, on my back and getting my guard passed...I would just pull my knife out and go for the neck or push away with my feet and bicycle kick like a dying cockroach.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fighte...23290477703405

Nothing MACP related here...but this is the FB page of the little MMA group I got down here.

Keep us in the loop on what you come up with it would be nice to keep a forum open on this. In the mean time we'll see what we can do as our program develops. :)

I really don't know if you can explain posture. yanawmean? Takes at least 6 months.

I try to explain posture as being a house. You need a foundation, a frame and a roof. The stronger each are, the more they compliment one another. But with combatives there is the other guy trying to kill you variable which might call for the guy on top to crash his head/helmet into the chest of the guy on bottom and control the biceps. Then, its a fight for domination and a kill strike. All in all the man who wins in hand to hand combat is the one who's friend shows up first to help.

ya and hopefully his friend shows up in the form of 63 grain wearing a shiny metal jacket.

I teach a hand to hand combat and a tactical course that implemtns some of the 10th p stuff. I had all the MCAP training, training as a county and federal cop as well as other courses Ive taken in the Military. Its not all JJ but its very much dedicated to police work and self defense and combat. If you are interested, let me know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

What is the expected skill level of the enemy combatants?

---

The Army combatives program is designed to (in its simplistic meaning) survive until your "buddy" comes along. That is what they preach throughout the program. It is also designed with simplicity in mind. You (for the most part) only have the Soldiers your are training for a short amount of time and a minimal block of time to instruct. They are not afforded the hours and hours of reps needed to truly understand techniques the way we do in our gyms. The techniques are very basic and not full of intricate deails. Many of the moves would not be something you'd use in a jj torunament or MMA fight because they defy the rules of basic JJ.

The mind set is, give the Soldier something that will 1. Build their confidence in the fact that they have some training 2. Make it simple so they can remeber the basic muscle movements 3. Show them things that will keep them in the fight long enough for their buddy to kill the guy they are figting with 4. Give them an appreciation for hand to hand combat 5. Teach them the techniques and test them on how they can teach the techniques in order to spread the program during things like SGts Time Training or PT (Train the Trainer mind set).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kevin Green

The Army combatives program is designed to (in its simplistic meaning) survive until your "buddy" comes along. That is what they preach throughout the program. It is also designed with simplicity in mind. You (for the most part) only have the Soldiers your are training for a short amount of time and a minimal block of time to instruct. They are not afforded the hours and hours of reps needed to truly understand techniques the way we do in our gyms. The techniques are very basic and not full of intricate deails. Many of the moves would not be something you'd use in a jj torunament or MMA fight because they defy the rules of basic JJ.

The mind set is, give the Soldier something that will 1. Build their confidence in the fact that they have some training 2. Make it simple so they can remeber the basic muscle movements 3. Show them things that will keep them in the fight long enough for their buddy to kill the guy they are figting with 4. Give them an appreciation for hand to hand combat 5. Teach them the techniques and test them on how they can teach the techniques in order to spread the program during things like SGts Time Training or PT (Train the Trainer mind set).

---

well put.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clayton

well put.

---

Thanks Clayton...If you are really interested, contact me and Ill show you some of the stuff I taught them..of course ill wait till you get back from Central America :)

The first guard pass that they teach you in MACP is the same one that they still teach in a lot of BJJ schools. It still works if you do it correctly. You scoop under the leg with one arm and you use the other to grab the pants and fend off the triangle. Really the way to fend off the triangle is to have really good hip pressure and posture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryan Cook

The first guard pass that they teach you in MACP is the same one that they still teach in a lot of BJJ schools. It still works if you do it correctly. You scoop under the leg with one arm and you use the other to grab the pants and fend off the triangle. Really the way to fend off the triangle is to have really good hip pressure and posture.

---

True, but like myself and Kevin have stated; Those are fundamentals that have to be drilled over and over. MACP level 1 is designed so that Soldier that is trained in Level 1 can go back to his unit and teach his battle buddies. A week long course doesn't allow for the core fundamentals to be taught. IMO Hand to Hand Combat is a reality. A reality that needs to be taken seriously regardless of MOS(Military Occupational Specialty) and adequate time needs to be given for it. I could go in depth over the verbal arguments I get in with MWR(Morale Welfare Recreation) when they tell me that MMA isn't recognized as a "funds available" sport to the Army. I just stay persistent and continue to ask for resources. So far I have got us a wrestling mat that is "EFFIN HUGE" and an unused racquetball court as my training facility . Sadly I am leaving this base soon and I fear that no one will carry on the torch I have held for the past two years. Hopefully I can get something started once I get to my next unit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kevin Green

Thanks Clayton...If you are really interested, contact me and Ill show you some of the stuff I taught them..of course ill wait till you get back from Central America :)

---

Sure thing Kevin!!!

Clayton: Just keep doing what you doing...it will inspire someone to keep it going, AND if it doesnt you tried to do the right thing for your Soldiers. They will rember that and take that with them wherever they go...