I know a lot of traditional schools or at least those with Ricksons lineage (only schools I've been to) frown upon beating your instructor. So my question is, should you tap out your instructor given the chance or just let them go?
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I know a lot of traditional schools or at least those with Ricksons lineage (only schools I've been to) frown upon beating your instructor. So my question is, should you tap out your instructor given the chance or just let them go?
Well frankly, if the option is there and he's not defending it I see no reason why you shouldn't. It shouldn't happen often and it should really only happen with the highest-level guys and/or those that have been training with that instructor for a long time (and are thus more likely to be familiar with his game). Grappling's chess and even Garry Kasparov has been beat. I think I get what he's saying though. I suppose depending upon your point of view it could be seen as disrespectful, but if he's a true teacher then both his ego and yours should be able to put it all in perspective.
That said, if you CAN tap your instructor regularly you're probably going to the wrong gym. I wouldn't pay a monthly gym fee, insurance, etc to a guy I can tap with just a few months/years training. I want an instructor with a lineage and pedigree that pretty well guarantees I'm not going to get the drop on him any time soon. If I were training at a gym run by a blue belt or a purple belt that might be a bit different. Brown-belt and above? No way. I tap that guy and I'm probably not staying around long. I'm sure I'll feel differently in ten years or so. :)
It depends on what kind of roll you're having. I think that it must be hard for instructors to gauge and then memorize every one of their students levels/abilities. So if they come in and roll too easy with you, give them some feedback. It'll be better for both of you. You both get a better workout and you might not have to wait for your next belt for so long. Either way, if your instructor is legit and you don't have a significant size/strength advantage, it was probably a fluke. Don't get excited.
Cool thread. I agree with the above in a way, although there are so many variables to the question. My head instructor is a 25 year BJJ veteran, very tough to beat, but because he trains fighters he gets gassed and tapped when they reach a certain very high level of training and beat him at his own game. He's sustained a knee injury recently that might require surgery. I would be very hesitant to rip on a submission and cause injury to any training partner, and its imperative the instructor feels the same way. So even if I had an arm straight or a choke tight, I wouldn't rip on it to the point of injury, to me the point is the control to attain the conscious submission. No student ever got anywhere going balls to the wall on his instructor just as no instructor got anywhere breaking his students arms. My instructors have always trained controlled intensity in submissions, and encourage endurance and killer instinct, we're all there to learn the hard way and have fun while doing it.
Agree 100 % with Jason. If it's there take it......if its there a lot, find a new school.
I have never Tapped my instructor ( unless you count when he's drilling me and gives it to me, to make sure I'm doing it right....But that doesn't count.) The day I tap him, I think I will pee myself a little. LOL.
I go to a Rickson affiliate school owned by a Rickson black belt, and I would never even dream of being able to tap one of his instructors. I don't believe any of them hold more than a blue belt, but none of them are very concerned with belt rank, so I don't think their actual skill is reflected in their ranking. I don't think most of them have even made much of an attempt at increasing their belt rank. They just train and teach. The chances of a student tapping them are pretty slim. I usually get dominated while they are going about 50-60%, and anything I get is because they let me have it. I don't know what the etiquette is, but I just don't really see tapping an instructor as realistic unless you're going to a shit school, so I guess I don't really see tapping or not tapping an instructor as a choice. If it is a choice I'd find another gym. Just my .02.
First off, thank you for all the great replies so far. Now I'm not saying I'm better than my instructor by any means because he taps me out every few classes and has 10x more knowledge than me.
ever think that maybe he put himself in those positions? I know for sure that when I roll with people with significantly less experience I give them positions and sub attempts, then I'll defend and counter, I also know for a fact that the higher belts (Travis) and my instructor, Denny only go at a fraction of their all, and will give up position to see what I'll do, then counter and sub me.
My instructor would be thrilled if I managed to tap him out. Hes told us that it's his goal to train us just as good if not better than he is. This should be philosophy of every instructor/coach imo.
if he's a good grappler, then NO...
but, for him to be even better, yes, you will get tapped...
Ego is the mother of invention~MJ
When I was training with a university club, I saw the instructor, a BJJ BB, tap to a purple--and then they both giggled like a couple of school girls. I figured what happened was that the BB was experimenting with something new and the purple caught him and they had a good laugh over it. No big deal. And that was the only time I ever saw the BB get tapped while I was training there.
Funny enough this happend to me last night. Had him dead to rights in a toe hold and had his other leg locked down (so he wasn't going anywhere)....his ankle was really flexing and he was wincing...it was his first night back to real training after injuring his back. For some reason i let it go...not really sure why...i just felt like he wasn't gonna tap and didn't want to re-injure him. I knew if it was a tourny or something else I would of had him...so lets move on and continue grappling.
My instructor is Marcelo Garcia.
Therefore, this issue of tapping your instructor is pretty much a non issue for me ;)
Nothing wrong with tapping out your instuctor. I roll with all my students every class. It's rare, but I do get tapped once in a while. I'm actually kinda happy when that happens. It means that my student is getting better. However, I make sure I don't make the same mistake again. :)
On the other hand, if some douchebag stranger walks in through the door for the very first time with the intent on tapping out the instructor, then it's kind of a different story.
I agree with Louis. Dont forget we are all student to the game. I learn things from Herzog, I'm sure at some point he learned something from me countering one of my attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Ho
The closest I got to my instructors neck was to swat a fly off of it. He then killed the fly and made me tap :-)
I think people are goofy if they think that the end all be all of their run at a gym is being able to tap out their instructor on a regular basis. As if it's a game, where after you beat the end boss, you win your own jiujitsu school.
In real life, when you become as good as a superior you become their peer. It's at that point that the relationship shifts from teacher student, to peer to peer and you work as a collective to develop both of your skills.
Hahaha for real.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric
Well put....Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Camacho
Andrew and Nate are purple belts man. But yeah, all of them dudes are BEASTS.
To the OP what Rickson guy told you that? I've been under one of his black belt reps for a while now and I've never heard anything like that. I'm at the point where I've started to get lucky catching some of our instructors here and there and there's never anything but fist bumps and pats on the back....different culture I guess.
This was s'posed to be attatched to m'post. sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanSC:MN
I remember a while back...
I was kind of getting ready for my first tourney (you'll see where the "kind of" comes in...). I was at that point where I was starting to feel like I was getting somewhere. I could go the whole five minute round without getting tapped by a few guys and I even got a tap or two myself. I started to think I might be getting good at this stuff. I must have had a particularly good night and my balls must have swollen to a few times their normal size because I posted something on Facebook like: "Either coach was taking it easy or I must be getting better. I went almost the whole round with him before getting tapped!"
Brief bit of background: Normally when we're rolling, it's at most about 60% or so. If you get tapped, you gather yourself together, crawl back in coach's guard, take a breath or two, slap hands, and start again. Sometimes there's a "here's why you got caught" lesson in there, sometimes the lesson is obvious; sometimes it's just some funny shit that came out of nowhere and you laugh. We also make sure to let our partners know if there's a nagging injury or something you'd appreciate them being a little cautious with.
Fast forward. A night or two after I posted that I crawled into coach's guard and got a REAL lesson. I made some comment about some little nothing aches that were bothering me and I got a very stern: "Shut-up and roll." I tried to say something and got an even sterner: "Shut the fuck up! Come on!"
I lost count of the subs VERY QUICKLY. I got ran over. I mean RAN THE FUCK OVER by a big truck with Zog on the license plate. I'd get tapped and if I took more than half a second to re-engage I got a very commanding: "LET'S GO!!!" and *bam* tapped again. Non-stop at well past my 100% for the full five minutes. I don't think coach took so much as an extra breath. I'd limp into his guard and there was a triangle waiting for me. I sat up to try to posture and got crushed right back down. I cannot articulate enough just how insane the pace felt to me. So THAT'S what it feels like to be broken...
When that eternal five minutes was over he said in a calm, almost parental tone: "That's the difference between competition and someone taking it easy on you." When the night was over he pulled me aside and gave me a good talking to. What he said wasn't intended to be private, but that's my lesson so I'll keep that for me.
I think the important part as pertains to this thread is -- don't ever underestimate your instructor. If you were fortunate enough to find yourself in a position to actually tap your teacher, file that under "I got lucky" until proven otherwise. :)
that's kind of a harsh way to teach that lesson haha he could've just talked to you about itQuote:
Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt
no, it is exactly what he asked for by going to face book and bragging a bit.....does your instructor read this forum? You may have a lesson en route as well (unless, your instructor just sucks).Quote:
Originally Posted by JusLove
i love herzog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt
I tell my students all the time that I expect them to tap me at some point or another. Whether it's tonight or 10 years from now....If they can't tap me at some point...then I'm not doing my job as an instructor.
I do too. I'd take a bullet for that guy and I'm pretty sure he knows it. And not just 'cause he taught me how to choke a bitch. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
Perhaps you should discuss the issue with your insrtructor on what he/she feels is appropriate. I personally have been given the lead in most of my
Schools grappeling classes lately, and I feel a sense of pride when a move I taught is well executed. I have no problem getting caught, it helps me evolve as well.
Its kinda like the first time you beat your dad in 1 on 1. I would say 'Fuck this loser' and go get a better dad even though he brought me to the point of being able to do it in the first place.
This is hearsay cause i dont know my dad, but I bet I could beat him in 21 if I did. The key to a good shot is setting your feet, squaring your shoulders, and keeping your elbow in. Being able to drive both ways helps too.
Oh no I definitely earned that one. I had been lazy in practice, not working on my cardio, and just about every night I was complaining about some little soreness or some crap. I was *that* guy with an excuse for everything. "Oh it just wasn't my night" Blah Blah. And here I was talking about how I was ready for this tournament and crap. Then to go posting some shit like: "Coach must have been taking it easy or I'm getting good..." Nah, I earned that ass whoopin'. It paid off too. Well, that and the good talking too. Totally changed the way I look at jiu jitsu and the way it fits into my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by JusLove
I think it's strange to say you should never tap out your instructor. What are you supposed to do, just stop if you have something?
My instructor would destroy anyone in our class if he wanted to, but he plays down to whomever he rolls with to give them a challenge, but also get them to learn. I've seen him expose himself on purpose to give guys / girls a chance to sub him, he usually escapes, but sometimes he doesn't.
I've seen him roll with visiting brown belts and black belts, and he takes it to a whole new level. One that I rarely see when he is rolling with blues and whites.
So while I've tapped him, I would never go around saying that 'I tapped a black belt', because I know that if it was a full on sparring session, it would not have happened.
if my student can tap me he or she better. it means im doing something right as a teacher.
No Shit Scott! Best quote yet. I am honored when my students can tap me out. Now in order for it to be an honor, it can't be regular. So that is my obligation as the instructor, to make sure that every roll with me offers either learning, or competition intensity, or both. Your instructor should teach you everything they know about jiu jitsu, and if they can do it so that you know their jiu jitsu better than they do... then that is a testament to YOUR learning abilities, and his/her Teaching ability.
Beating your instructor is trivial, learning everything they have to teach is critical.
Best part is, 10th Planet breeds a positive competitve spirit. When you have a master instructor (Eddie Bravo) who is showing moves based on what his students are having success with and not trying to deny them creattiviey,( he constantly rewards it ), then you have an enviroment where all of us are going to continue to grow until our Jiu Jitsu style is as best as we can make it. We are not even close to that point yet. We need to continue have bad ass instructors who care about teaching their students how to be better at winning with 10th Planet, AND we need more bad ass STUDENTS who raise the flag by constatnly competing and respresenting what they have learned.
Red, Yockel, Valdez, DeWitt, Gibbins- You guys are leading the charge for all us affiliate instructors. Keep up the great work!
RW
and further more most bjj instructors dont bother to roll with the students
i see scott rolling all the time wiht his students
and he never holds back!
atleast from what i see
I agree with your instructor's philosophy completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas White
We just got a new MMA/BJJ coach at my gym, he rolls with us every time we do JJ, AND he's even comming on open mat times just to roll with us. Cool guy Coach Lobo is. I still want my rubber guard though! =D Must find some 10th Planet Players in Miami.Quote:
Originally Posted by einstein