kimura question..

Ok, lets say we are in regular side control and we have the kimura locked in.. now i understand putting the leg behind the head when you turn it, and ive seen locking your feet once you step over, or there's just finishing it from side control.. but ive been trying something new to me (for all i know its used all the time, i just dont see it bc im not at a gym).. but its working for me a lot. anyway.. once you have the kimura locked in from s.c., is there any reason it would be bad to then keep it locked in while stepping into mount, and then proceeding to turn it until they roll on top, finishing how you would if you were to do a kimura from full guard. Im not sure why but i just feel more comfortable and it seems to work just as well for me. So i was just wondering before i start making it a habit.. is there a reason i shouldnt be doing this? or something i should be aware of that i just havent come across yet?

If you lose their arm you've given up 2 dominant positions. That's all I can think of.

i prefer bottom anyway lol. so that doesnt bother me. (unless we're battling for points of course)

If you prefer bottom then it' could be a smooth transition possibility. If you've got me mounted with a kimura and i'm trying to power out and I get out of mount/reverse the position, but my arm is in a worst angle then kudos for you haha.

Yeah dude I do the same thing

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Originally Posted by chronic_jiujitsu

i prefer bottom anyway lol. so that doesnt bother me. (unless we're battling for points of course)

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Doesn't matter if you prefer bottom. You have a much stronger mechanical advantage finishing the Kimura from the top. Even if you don't lose the Kimura by going to your back, as you face better opponents it's not going to be high percentage. Look at how many matches are finished by purple, brown, and black belts (gi and no-gi) with the Kimura from the bottom.... almost none. Look at how many are finished from side control and north/south... Much more common.

Never ever give up a good position with a tight sub locked in for a weaker position and a lower chance of finishing the sub.

It's just dumb. No offense. It may not be dumb now for you, but it's a habit that will cause you trouble as you progress.

Preferring to play guard doesn't mean you should give up a top position Kimura to try to finish it from the bottom.

I agree. Learn to control and finish from top. You are slick on the bottom, but like mike said, on a more skilled opponent, your gonna want to be on top. I rarely finish with kimoras, but use it to transition to the armbar or spiderweb.

Eisner went over some really good tips on finishing from top in mts 17. Besides the fact that I love any rolling or flying sub setup.

think about your points of contact...

Even "if" you and your opponent are evenly matched in size and strength, you're putting yourself at risk of being swept by giving up points of contact. The mount is a position; a setup to find opportunity to end the conflict

...not an end all technique

...maybe, bape over with the arm locked setting up some sort of arm crusher, short arm scissor (SAS), Dorsal Fin'ish

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Originally Posted by Shane Lee

think about your points of contact...

Even "if" you and your opponent are evenly matched in size and strength, you're putting yourself at risk of being swept by giving up points of contact. The mount is a position; a setup to find opportunity to end the conflict

...not an end all technique

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Yep. Also, even if they are an exact match in size and strength, being on bottom would still give the edge to the top player. Like I told him, you NEVER see Kimuras finished from the bottom at the high level. The only time that sticks out in my mind is Jacare over Marcelo Garcia at ADCC 2005. Whereas I can name countless examples of Kimuras finished from the top.

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Originally Posted by WhiteMike2k9

Yep. Also, even if they are an exact match in size and strength, being on bottom would still give the edge to the top player. Like I told him, you NEVER see Kimuras finished from the bottom at the high level. The only time that sticks out in my mind is Jacare over Marcelo Garcia at ADCC 2005. Whereas I can name countless examples of Kimuras finished from the top.

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Ive noticed the same thing.. in fact even when rolling myself i notice a huge difference in the amount of kimuras i catch from the bottom compared to how many i catch from top.. but i didnt know if it was bc of the mechanics or if starting from side control might increase your kimura percentage from the bottom once you roll into it already locked in? But now that my question is answered.. is there a reason its preferred to be on top? (assuming its jiujitsu and not MMA) or is it just personal opinion? for me i just like bottom because i feel i have a larger arsenal of moves to work with based on what i know.. but lets say once i improve my top game.. whats the main reason its better to be on top?

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Originally Posted by chronic_jiujitsu

Ive noticed the same thing.. in fact even when rolling myself i notice a huge difference in the amount of kimuras i catch from the bottom compared to how many i catch from top.. but i didnt know if it was bc of the mechanics or if starting from side control might increase your kimura percentage from the bottom once you roll into it already locked in? But now that my question is answered.. is there a reason its preferred to be on top? (assuming its jiujitsu and not MMA) or is it just personal opinion? for me i just like bottom because i feel i have a larger arsenal of moves to work with based on what i know.. but lets say once i improve my top game.. whats the main reason its better to be on top?

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Well this opes a can of worms and can be an entire debate itself, that is, why it's better to be on top. The general idea is gravity and mobility. More points are given for passes than sweeps, etc. One thing people like Marcelo Garcia say is that the best players in the world are always the best guard passers. Sweeps and subs are more fun, for sure. But you cannot be the best in the world if you can't pass. Even if you don't wanna be the best in the world, train to beat black belts, and everyone else will be easier to beat.

There's nothing wrong with preferring the bottom. When we roll from the knees, I usually sit down. But my bottom game is based on sweeping and taking the back. The only sub I'll ever really attempt from the bottom is the Triangle and Omoplata. My Marcelo Guillotines, Armlocks, Kimuras, etc... even if they're finished on the bottom, they are usually setup from the top or in transitions.

There are just a ton of ways to get the Kimura from the top that chain with straight armlocks, north/south chokes, inverted armlocks, Americanas, etc. Also being able to put your weight on them on stop them from sitting up is a huge factor with being on top. Obviously if you have it locked in on top and roll to the bottom it's better than trying to get it from scratch on the bottom, and you'll probably finish, but if you lose it then you just lose a major positional advantage.

Position over submission. I know we hear it ad nauseaum. Also on top as far as the Kimura is concerned you have 2, if not 3 baisc ways to finish it. You can finish it from side control with the head-side leg stepped over their head. You can finish it from North/South. You can also finish it from mount, although it's a little tricker and the other two options are more common and preferable. Since 2007, watching ADCC and the no-gi Worlds (I assume you train no-gi only?) I see it finished from North/South more than any other position, with side control coming in at second.

Marcelo Garcia for example doesn't do the Kimura or even teach it because he says it requires too much strength and is harder to do on larger opponents. This makes sense for his game since he fights Absolute so much. But it's absolutely true. Stronger shoulders help Kimuras tremendously. There's a reason why Xande, Romulo, and Werdum, for example, finish more Kimuras than most. They're all 190 lbs or larger. And being on top allows you to use your back and shoulders to lift and turn the arm when the opponent is resisting.

Take the common defense of hiding your hand/wrist inside your thigh to stop the Kimura. That defense is SO much easier to beat if you're on top than if you are in guard. If that happens and you're on bottom, you have to use brute strength or switch the the hip-bump sweep or another attack. If you're on top, even if they grab their belt or lapel, you can almost always pop the arm free and if you can't, you can spin to the straight armlock.

I hope I'm helping??? Are you asking why it's better to be on top for the Kimura, or in general?

i was saying in general.. and i understand what youre saying. I mean.. i would guess against a Marcelo or any other top level competitor.. my full-guard, rubber guard, and half guard.. dont mean squat when they can pass through them. And as great as it would be to be able to stop them from passing.. i understand thats probably not plausible with guys like that. So i would see how being on top would be better in the long run against better competition. i cant do much from my back when they have me in side control or mount.. which chances are they will find a way to do at that level.

When you think about it, physically finishing a kimura from top is going to be higher percentage than bottom. The opponent has less mobility to create a scramble and is carrying your weight, their defenses are predictable and limited, and you are attacking.

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Originally Posted by chronic_jiujitsu

i was saying in general.. and i understand what youre saying. I mean.. i would guess against a Marcelo or any other top level competitor.. my full-guard, rubber guard, and half guard.. dont mean squat when they can pass through them. And as great as it would be to be able to stop them from passing.. i understand thats probably not plausible with guys like that. So i would see how being on top would be better in the long run against better competition. i cant do much from my back when they have me in side control or mount.. which chances are they will find a way to do at that level.

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Well in general, you have gravity on your side which is a good thing. Also like I said, you can pass from the knees or on the feet. In many cases there's just more mobility as you're trying to pass. Not to mention your options for finishing are much stronger once you get to side, mount, or back control. You force them to carry your weight, the list goes on.

If you're on bottom in side control or mount your focus should be to re-guard or get a single-leg, etc. Anything to get on top or establish a guard where you can sweep or sub. There are escapes from the bottom that can lad you in submission spots, but they're rare. Escapes are no fun to drill, but you just have to do it.

Also, keeping combat in mind, from the top you can land effective strikes. I understand most of us train for sport, but keeping real fighting in mind is important from time-to-time.

Also, if you're on the bottom you can have the best sweeps in the world. Hell, you can sweep Roger Gracie or Marcelo but if you can't ass their guard you still cannot win. You've got to be able to pass the guard.

I'm not dogging the guard at all. But you have to be able to follow it up after a sweep.