Choke Etiquette

I am relatively new to BJJ, I'm a strong guy and in good shape.

Whenever I take someone's back, and go for a RNC, I really work hard to slide under the chin, if that doesn't work, I keep working for it, sliding different arms in, pulling an arm down and going in again etc before applying the "squeeze".

However I find alot of people, if not most at my gym, are content to get the arm across the jaw/face and squeeze without having their arm under the chin. The same for guillotines, infact most chokes.

It's obviously very uncomfortable and usually results in a tap. I'm unclear on the etiquette here. Personally, I find it very annoying, and if I escape, I just want to punish the guy straight back.

I mentioned before, I'm a strong guy, and in good shape, I would have no problem tapping people from this at all, other than I'd feel personally uncomfortable doing it to someone else.

Could someone clear this up for me? Should I be attacking and aiming to tap people, or should I be working for the perfect position.

I'm sure this is a problem many more experiences BJJ practitioners have faced, and would welcome some input.

Work to perfect your chokes. If you get the occasinal face crank tap, okay, but you want to get good at strangling them.

Also, it's RNC not RNK.

Good post man. More people need to think this way

But how do you know they are not going for a face crank?Maybe you should communicate with the person your rolling with instead of punishing them.Are we not there to learn from each other and Should you not try to utilize all your tools?

I concur; good post. :)

My feeling is, you practice for a reason and if you're not going to practice the technique properly why waste your time? If it's a competition all bets are off. If a face-crank gets the tap, good job. In class, though, I'll either keep working for the choke or bail and go to Spiderweb or the Truck. I want to learn how to execute the technique properly and if I can't get it then I'll go to something I CAN get properly. Otherwise it feels like missing the point of practice entirely. I find the same thing with Kimuras and Americanas. Yeah, you can just torque somebody's arm and get a tap some of the time but that misses point too. The reps only count if they're good quality reps. Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Beyond that, my training partners are my partners. Many of them I consider good friends. That's just a dick move to do to your friend to just mash his face for no reason other than to make him tap. Your not practicing anything by doing that; you're just trying to score a tap. For what? It's practice. Taps don't count in practice, so what did you gain? You proved you can hurt your friend enough to make him tap.

It always frustrates me when guys will just drive their forearm into my throat from guard or like you said face crank me and it just makes me want to put them to sleep, but you are right make them tap to something that will make them go unconscious not a sub that takes a good amount of pain tolerance to escape.

you treat others the way you want to be treated on the mat.

i have no etiquette. ask someone

I'm not sure I agree. I think it's important to be reminded that the dick moves are there. If a guy taps me by crushing my jaw or if he exposes my neck using his knuckles, I won't complain. If someone's going to do it in a comp then I'd like to be familiar with it. And I'd like my friends to know it's there too.

Having said that, I've never rolled with someone with the intention of using poor technique or hurting them and I always try to put a sub on properly.

dont go 100% if there jaw is hanging open other than that
SQUEEZE!!!!!

Just depends on who you roll with. I wouldn't do that to my partners but some people feel they have something to prove. So feel free to smash back. I think it is a little disrespectful to go that rout.

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Originally Posted by Mike Dewitt Jr

It always frustrates me when guys will just drive their forearm into my throat from guard or like you said face crank me and it just makes me want to put them to sleep, but you are right make them tap to something that will make them go unconscious not a sub that takes a good amount of pain tolerance to escape.

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I disagree with this entirely. In jiu jitsu, when you have mount for example, it is so easy for a guy to just T-Rex to avoid submissions. Since you obviously cannot throw strikes, the only thing that you can do is try to make the person so uncomfortable that he moves and makes himself vulnerable.

If you're getting your jaw crushed by a sick squeeze and you don't like it, go ahead and lift your chin up and let it slide over your neck.

Yes, these things are uncomfortable...that's the point. But, they are well within the rules and etiquette of submission wrestling. You have options: tap, give up a submission (and then tap), or escape.

If you take away the factor of trying to force your opponent into mistakes through discomfort, you're left with even less realistic, less effective training. This ain't ballet.

Thanks everyone for your input, really interesting to read.

The grey area for me is when someone lowers their chin to defend a choke, at what point is someone lowering, to defend their neck from being squeezed or from you squeezing their neck?

Obviously in a competition, it doesn't matter, but in sparring, should one keep working or take the jaw crank?

Is the first time you want to try to finish or escape a submission in comp? The problem i have is when people go from 0 to a 100. It should be controlled and gradual. Knee on neck, jaw crush chokes, heel hooks, all cranks should be encouraged with control. And team mates should know to tap. If you crush a mans jaw, the fight is over. Imo thats a legit sub. If you dont do it to each other they will. Teammates shouldn't be offended if progression and preparation are the objective.

That gray area should really be communicated to your training partners. Each person has different goals and different expectations when they roll. Usually the guys who want to cage fight fight dirtier than the "9 to 5ers", so it's usually best to regard every person differently.

One training partner used to grind the ridge of his hand into my nasal septum in order to get me to open up for the rear naked choke. One time he did it, I felt like my nose was bleeding for a week. It's just felt raw and red. I had to ask him to knock it off, and he hasn't done it sense.

Like cross facing. I'm fine with getting cross faced if somebody momentarily uses it to setup an opening or a move. But if a dude just goes ape shit and grinds the cross face till he's gassed, then we'll have a little conversation afterwards about what he is actually trying to achieve. The gist being, we're here to learn and develop, not just to arbitrarily cause pain to each other.

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Originally Posted by SpikeLeeRoth

Thanks everyone for your input, really interesting to read.

The grey area for me is when someone lowers their chin to defend a choke, at what point is someone lowering, to defend their neck from being squeezed or from you squeezing their neck?

Obviously in a competition, it doesn't matter, but in sparring, should one keep working or take the jaw crank?

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You're asking at what point are they lowering to defend the onset of the choke or are they lowering so you aren't sqeezing their neck but rather their face?

I'll just say this, and some people may say I'm wrong, but lowering your face to stop a RNC or any choke for that matter IS NOT a valid defense. In and of itself, at least. If your only defense against the RNC is to tuck your chin, that's a terrible habit and you're going to end up with a damaged jaw and/or dental work.

Obviously in a competition you can crush their jaw with the RNC and the tap is just fine. But even then, you always should go for the perfect technique. You don't want to win because your opponent made a mistake or you got lucky, you want to win because you did the right technique. Imagine trying to RNC Jeff Monson's face... Unless you're Joao Assis (who got a tap from that) you are not gonna be able to do it.

There are several high % techniques for getting underneath someone's jaw once it's tucked. Learn those and drill them.

You're definitely on the right track.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

That gray area should really be communicated to your training partners. Each person has different goals and different expectations when they roll. Usually the guys who want to cage fight fight dirtier than the "9 to 5ers", so it's usually best to regard every person differently.

One training partner used to grind the ridge of his hand into my nasal septum in order to get me to open up for the rear naked choke. One time he did it, I felt like my nose was bleeding for a week. It's just felt raw and red. I had to ask him to knock it off, and he hasn't done it sense.

Like cross facing. I'm fine with getting cross faced if somebody momentarily uses it to setup an opening or a move. But if a dude just goes ape shit and grinds the cross face till he's gassed, then we'll have a little conversation afterwards about what he is actually trying to achieve. The gist being, we're here to learn and develop, not just to arbitrarily cause pain to each other.

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How do you feel about Baret Yoshida's RNC? Just curious: because he uses the forearm on the septum a lot...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wo-RA-HB_I

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Originally Posted by WhiteMike2k9

How do you feel about Baret Yoshida's RNC? Just curious: because he uses the forearm on the septum a lot...

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It's one of those weird moves, like pressure points. If you know that it's a pain move you just suck it up and take it and end up with a jacked up nose for a week. I'll take it for a competition or a fight but in the gym, training every day, it's just pointless.

Einstein crushed the shit out of my jaw.

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Originally Posted by Louis Ho

Einstein crushed the shit out of my jaw.

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Yeah, its in the all stars DVD and I have drilled it with someone who also wanted to drill it on me. I also don't like being in my friends invisible collar but it's the right thing to do and I know he is not playing dirty.

i think it depends on who you are rolling with.

if my guys have my back and they wanna crush my face, no problem. i shouldn't have given up my back. but just remember... i will be on your back soon.

if i am rolling with some of the smaller guys in class and start doing that stuff, that's pretty tacky, i think.

and if big guys are just using crush and strength against small guys i think that's dumb, too.

i do agree with the idea that it's an option during tournaments so we need to be aware of it. and i also agree with going for it in a tourney if you need to.

the problem is (to me) that it is easy for competitive people to forget that not everyone is in this sport to be the next BJ Penn. some people train because they enjoy the art. or they find peace in it. or their dad is making them come to practice. or they need to lose some weight. or they enjoy the feeling of being part of a team. in my opinion, anything that makes anyone in the gym not want to train is totally inappropriate. if you're new, you don't know. that's different. but an experienced grappler crushing an inexperienced grappler is poor etiquette (experience vs experience, i say go for it).

know your training partners. if they are recreational players, don't crush em.

As long as you make a good faith effort to do the sub properly, an occasional jaw crush is forgivable. Just put it on nice and slow. I would hate to injure a training partner, but I think dick moves have their place as long as they're used in moderation.

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Originally Posted by WhiteMike2k9

How do you feel about Baret Yoshida's RNC? Just curious: because he uses the forearm on the septum a lot...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wo-RA-HB_I

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lol from 0:36 onwards it sounds like the guy getting choked is making baby noises.

happened to me once with a good buddy...his name is jesse i got his back, and squezze slowly, but he wouldnt tap, so i squezzed harder and eventualy his lip got cut. i told him to tap as it was going. he said no. and got all angry. hes a blue belt, im a white begginner with 20-30lbs less. going for the back is most of my game, i would say there nothing wrong with doing so, as long as its done correctly, and not done systematicaly with everyone in every situation.
'train as you fight'