Me & Dan Hardy are on the same page! Wrestlers are stalling to win

Interview with Dan Hardy titled: "There's Too Much Wrestling" in the UFC

"Nik Lentz didn't come to fight Andre (Winner), he actually came to avoid one at all costs, like he'd be shortlisted for the Nobel Peace Prize and didn't want to mess up his chances of winning it."

"Lentz grabbed hold of Dre's leg for three coma-inducing rounds, which the ticket-paying public clearly didn't appreciate."

"Rather than saying 'oh, these guys can't wrestle', I think the problem is there's beginning to be too much wrestling in UFC Octagon, not too little of it in the gym. There are a lot of people out there calling themselves 'UFC fighters' who are nothing of the kind. In the UFC, you should go for finishes."

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either."

"But there's guys out there who just want to use wrestling to hold a stalemate for 15 minutes, without ever risking going for ground and pounds or attempting submissions."

"The Athletic Commissions need to look at the scoring and refereeing to stop this from becoming a problem. If a guy is in a dominant position, but not actually doing anything offensive – stand 'em back up."

"If he is consistently trying to tie the other guy up to avoid actual fighting – warn him and then start taking points. It is supposed to be a fight."

"But there's guys out there who just want to use wrestling to hold a stalemate for 15 minutes, without ever risking going for ground and pounds or attempting submissions."

I agree, but it works for some of the "best" fighters in MMA... but look at it from the viewpoint of the judges, he is holding a dominant position, and muting the other fighter from doing anything, it isnt exciting, but its effective.

I agree with this. In Dan Hardy's fight with gsp you can actually here Greg Jackson telling gsp not to pass his guard at one point.

Yup. I couldn't agree more. In the words of Nick Diaz "in the ufc it's, i grab your ass for 15 min, you grab my ass for 15 min and whoever grabs the most ass wins"

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Originally Posted by Nate Hollyfield

I agree, but it works for some of the "best" fighters in MMA... but look at it from the viewpoint of the judges, he is holding a dominant position, and muting the other fighter from doing anything, it isnt exciting, but its effective.

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They are only the "best" and it's only "effective" if those are what the rules dictate as success. If scoring and officiating changed direction it would quickly die out once it stopped winning fights.

I think not utilising a dominant position should count against you. Wheres the skill in getting somewhere and the doing nothing?

I think the issue is bigger than just people getting good with takedowns. I think there is also a paradigm shift held over from the collegiate wrestling culture, where you view the fight as just a game and your goal is just to win the game. The fight is just part of the process, where the aim is to earn points.

There's a reason why collegiate wrestling can be boring to watch. Ironically it's the same reason why watching a bunch of random sports BJJ matches can get boring. Too many people just want to win the game. At least in the BJJ culture there are still gyms who believe in finishing the match. I can't imagine any college wrestling program preaching that the game is pointless and that it's all about the pin.

You don't see this sort of thing in Japan because for them, the game is a means to a fight. That whole budo spirit thing. In America though, it's about winning by any means possible.

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Originally Posted by Jared Gammel

They are only the "best" and it's only "effective" if those are what the rules dictate as success. If scoring and officiating changed direction it would quickly die out once it stopped winning fights.

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Oh ya man, and in no way am I saying I like it. I just mean, people consider Jake Shields a good fighter, and he does what most wrestlers do, takedown and hold. The whole concept pisses me off.

I think a part of what you are saying is true. But, it is not the fault of the wrestlers. It is the referees and officials. If you look at the rules of USA wrestling - it states that a wrestle should be aggressive and always on the attack. In the US Nationals or Olympics wrestlers must fight in the middle of the mat or they are penalized. If they are down on the mat with no action for 10 seconds they are stood back up. The UFC should take a look at this.

The governing bodies must change the rules to force the action and educated the officials more. The wrestlers will adapt like always.

I agree. In that andre winnner vs nick lentz fight, nick lentz caused zero damage, he may have controlled the match but it wasnt fighting. Winner wasnt damaged at all, you have to inflict damage to win a fight.

They need to have a look at the scoring system more, octagon control is supposed to be just one of the factors that they use to score a fight. Or bring yellow cards for inactivity into play!

Theres too many wrestlers who have forgot about ground n pound are bringing ground n hug into the cage instead

im not really looking forward to the gsp koscheck fight for this reason.. prety sure its going to be 5 rounds of nothing

I'm not trying to be mean but if any of these so called fight finishers could sprawl worth a shit, we wouldn't be having this discussion. No offense to Hardy( he's an exciting fighter to watch), but he just stood there and watched GSP shoot in on him.

^^I highly doubt Dan Hardy is talking about his fight with GSP, he didn't even mention it.
It is obvious that GSP passed guard repeatedly and went for more than a couple submissions. He is talking about huggers. His opinion is talking about the lack of wrestling skill.

I didn't see the Nik Lentz Andre Winner fight, but I DID see GSP and Hardy and I DID see the last 3 or 4 or 5 Jon Fitch fights and my reply to Hardy is - what the fuck did YOU do against GSP? If you get taken down and are getting held down, DO something about it. GET OUT of the position. I agree it can be a little bit boring with certain wrestling-heavy styles, but I'm more frustrated by Hardy's complete indifference to getting taken down and then doing anything from the bottom position than I am by GSP's conservative fight plan. If you want to bring Japan into it, you don't ever hear Japanese fans boo the grappling part of a match like you do the drunken idiot Vegas yahoos the minute the match goes to the ground. In Lesnar's 2nd match with Mir, the idiot crowd was actually chanting "stand-them-up" about 10 seconds before Lesnar pounded Mir's face into unhealthy shapes....

Knees to an opponent in the 3 point stance is a must it would even alot of things out, but when it comes down to it as a fighter one must dictate where the fight goes work on that take down defense. Also lets get some yellow card action god i miss pride if these dudes were having money taken away i bet they would pick up the pace.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Valdez

^^I highly doubt Dan Hardy is talking about his fight with GSP, he didn't even mention it.
It is obvious that GSP passed guard repeatedly and went for more than a couple submissions. He is talking about huggers. His opinion is talking about the lack of wrestling skill.

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I may have spoke out of place then. But I should also add that alot of these hugging matches are the result of the guy on bottom's pitiful escape skills. If a guy's pinning my hips to the mat there's usually a free Chill Dog for me. Or if my hips are pinned to tight for that, time to frame off his head and shrimp.

Jon, it's different than that. You will find it hard to be able to get Chill Dog on a guy with elite wrestling skills when he is pinning your hips to the mat properly. There's been many a time against higher skilled people where it is VERY hard to escape, even with good escape skills. Wrestlers are very good at keeping things tight on the top, and it's not just as simple as "Oh I'll pull Rubber Guard, or I'll just frame off his head and shrimp".

If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it. It's not that easy.

New rules: no decision wins... either you finish the fight or it's a no contest

haha just kidding, but not really

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Originally Posted by Jay JC Chow

If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it. It's not that easy.

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that

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Originally Posted by Jay JC Chow

Jon, it's different than that. You will find it hard to be able to get Chill Dog on a guy with elite wrestling skills when he is pinning your hips to the mat properly. There's been many a time against higher skilled people where it is VERY hard to escape, even with good escape skills. Wrestlers are very good at keeping things tight on the top, and it's not just as simple as "Oh I'll pull Rubber Guard, or I'll just frame off his head and shrimp".

If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it. It's not that easy.

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I guess I'll have to take your word for it, but the State Champions I wrestled with in high school tended to stop hugging my hips when I was raking their nose with my forearm. Granted it wasn't always easy to pull off and it often compromised my position, but very few of my wrestling matches remained stagnant.

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Originally Posted by Jay JC Chow

Jon, it's different than that. You will find it hard to be able to get Chill Dog on a guy with elite wrestling skills when he is pinning your hips to the mat properly. There's been many a time against higher skilled people where it is VERY hard to escape, even with good escape skills. Wrestlers are very good at keeping things tight on the top, and it's not just as simple as "Oh I'll pull Rubber Guard, or I'll just frame off his head and shrimp".

If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it. It's not that easy.

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Well said. I think many people (not necessarily Jon) have misgivings about what a wrestler is actually doing in the closed guard. It's a very technical game that they are playing.

Aren't many wrestlers playing a very technical, very safe, very boring, very non-aggressive waiting game? Or are they going for a win in some way I just can't perceive?

I guess, but when a BJJ player does the same thing with his closed guard he's regarded as patient and technical. At least the BJJ is actually setting up something though. I mean look at that grapplers quest match between Penny Thomas and Tracy Goodell. Tracy was literally using the body lock to safely setup her grips before willing to transition and give up an opening. That was an insanely safe strategy she was employing that was crazy boring to watch for part of the later half of the match (the rest of the match was awesome).

Penny wasn't even able to work anything until the last minute when Tracy had to play a more dynamic open guard because she was running out of time.

At least she was trying to hit triangles...

...it's an interesting point though because she lost. She wasn't exactly playing it safe. I mean the parallel is valuable. But it's not as if she had a winning position that she was sitting on.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Valdez

^^I highly doubt Dan Hardy is talking about his fight with GSP, he didn't even mention it.
It is obvious that GSP passed guard repeatedly and went for more than a couple submissions. He is talking about huggers. His opinion is talking about the lack of wrestling skill.

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gsp made a fan out of me in that fight and made me a believer in his jiu jitsu but I also became a greg jackson hater because like i said before later in the fight Greg Jackson told gsp not to pass Dan Hardeys guard even though gsp had a clear advantage in the jiu jitsu game.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

I'm not trying to be mean but if any of these so called fight finishers could sprawl worth a shit, we wouldn't be having this discussion. No offense to Hardy( he's an exciting fighter to watch), but he just stood there and watched GSP shoot in on him.

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What!? so I supose Matt huges, BJ Penn and Josh Koscheck need to work on there take down defense and learn to sprawl as well right? G.S.P has the best take downs in MMA !! Thats like saying people shouldnt get knocked out by Anderson Sylva they should just improve there stand up defense or People shouldnt be getting submited by Daimen Mia they should just improve there jiu jitsu defense.

Nate Marquardt Comments on Dan Hardy

Dan Hardy is one person who does not enjoy the wrestling tactic used in many fights. He expressed those thoughts after two of his teammates fell short battling grapplers in their fights at UFC 118 in Boston.

"I think the problem is there's beginning to be too much wrestling in UFC Octagon, not too little of it in the gym," Hardy said in an article for the Nottingham Post. "There are a lot of people out there calling themselves 'UFC fighters' who are nothing of the kind. In the UFC, you should go for finishes.

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either. But there's guys out there who just want to use wrestling to hold a stalemate for 15 minutes, without ever risking going for ground and pounds or attempting submissions."

Another person who fell short due to his wrestling in his last fight is Nate Marquardt. Top middleweight contender Chael Sonnen took him down repeatedly in their fight back in February.

Marquardt takes a different approach when hearing Hardy's comments about wrestling's dominance in MMA.

"I think that's just something from someone who isn't a good wrestler," Marquardt said about Hardy. "I think wrestling is a big part of MMA, and you shouldn't complain about it, you should learn it and learn how to defend against it."

Speaking about his fight with Sonnen, Marquardt is honest about his shortcomings and what he did when he went back in the gym to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

"I was unable to defend the takedowns in my last fight, and that's why I lost the fight," Marquardt commented. "Now I'm going to be more prepared to defend the takedown no matter who I'm fighting, and I worked hard on my wrestling and I continue to work hard on my wrestling."

as long as the wrestlers throwing punces how could you say he is stalling?

I thought I'd post one last question and comment for this thread and see what you guys think. Do all of you honestly think Rashad Evans could stall out Roger Gracie's guard? If your answer is yes then I guess I have nothing else I can say to you because your mind is beyond my swaying. But you better believe my answer is no. I also bet Roger would probably execute something as simple as framing off Rashad's head to free his hips from being pinned. And it would work not because it's easy, but because if executed properly, it's possible. Just my two cents.

My mind on this topic was made up when I saw a Shamrock - Royce Gracie superfight that was 30 minutes of boredom. UFC 3? 4? This must have been the birth of Lay and Pray. And I must admit:

1) It's understandable. No one had beaten Gracie. It's clear from the post fight interview that Shamrock wanted to show a weakness in traditional BJJ which seems to be that in full guard, it waits for you to make a mistake. That's passive.
2) In my mind he won the fight. He did more damage and Gracie did not seem a threat lying on his back for half an hour.
3) If this had continued for another 3 hours, one of them would have been able to make their point one way or the other.
4) It was still one of the most boring fights I've ever seen. It wasn't very super and it was barely a fight.
5) Shamrock's short shorts were weird then and they are weird now.

Alright I've been sucked back into the conversation. Royce Gracie's guard wasn't on the same level as Rickson, Royler, De La Riva, or any of the top BJJ players of his time. Just ask Royce. He was chosen for UFC because he looked like an average dude and that promoted the idea that Jiu Jitsu could work for anyone. Royce's guard isn't even on Renzo's level. Watch their fights with Matt Hughes. Hughes dominated Royce on the ground and refused to even engage Renzo while he was on his back because he knew it would just mean trouble.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

Alright I've been sucked back into the conversation. Royce Gracie's guard wasn't on the same level as Rickson, Royler, De La Riva, or any of the top BJJ players of his time. Just ask Royce. He was chosen for UFC because he looked like an average dude and that promoted the idea that Jiu Jitsu could work for anyone. Royce's guard isn't even on Renzo's level. Watch their fights with Matt Hughes. Hughes dominated Royce on the ground and refused to even engage Renzo while he was on his back because he knew it would just mean trouble.

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Ahh. I concede the point then.

If your going to argue best guards of all time versus great wrestler, than your missing the point. There are only so many greatest guards of all time.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Valdez

If your going to argue best guards of all time versus great wrestler, than your missing the point. There are only so many greatest guards of all time.

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as are there so many greatest wrestlers

Nice counter point. I do get that you think it's cowardice on the wrestler's part to just stall for the win and rip off the fans who've paid money to see a show, but I still felt the need to interject that there is potential for the high level Jiu Jitsu man to overcome this stalling.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

Nice counter point. I do get that you think it's cowardice on the wrestler's part to just stall for the win and rip off the fans who've paid money to see a show, but I still felt the need to interject that there is potential for the high level Jiu Jitsu man to overcome this stalling.

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ahhh, if they would all just learn rubber guard, War Sotoropolis! hasnt Eddie been saying this for years.

this point was much better than your one about take down defense.

Ran into this today: clarifying comments by Dan Hardy.

http://www.bjpenn.com/profiles/blogs...-antiwrestling

Good follow up Joshua Jarboe.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

What!? so I supose Matt huges, BJ Penn and Josh Koscheck need to work on there take down defense and learn to sprawl as well right? G.S.P has the best take downs in MMA !! Thats like saying people shouldnt get knocked out by Anderson Sylva they should just improve there stand up defense or People shouldnt be getting submited by Daimen Mia they should just improve there jiu jitsu defense.

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That wasn't what I said. I said that Dan just stood there and watched GSP shoot in on him. And all those other fighters you mentioned can sprawl and pose a greater threat to GSP as far as their wrestling is concerned even though GSP got the better of them in the past. And it seemed to me at the time that Hardy resents wrestlers because he can't wrestle (or at least not on the same level as the names you mentioned). But I also didn't read the article and I got a little irrational because I felt that DValdez was making some harsh and unfair statements about wrestlers. Sorry. And I'm also gonna have to say that Rashad Evans' takedowns trump GSP's. But then again I may be a little biased because I'm a Big Ten fan and Rashad's a Michigan State alumni.