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What is the benefit, if any, of using 50/50 opposed to using the knee reaping style leg locks? I find myself playing the leg lock game more and more, and the knee reaping style seems to be higher percentage for me. 50/50 usually just seems to stall out the action. So I was wondering what your opinions are? Especially Coach Herzogs take on this.
5050 is more of a stall tactic, you can also use it as a sweep or a way to take the back or attack the legs/knees. ive watched a few sambo dvds (didnt spend much time on them/pay attention) but i would assume sambo is higher percentage because sambo only practices throws/takedowns, armbars, and leglocks and not much else
5050 is a versitile move, a sub-set of sambo, which gives you more mobility to set up other attacks... i watched RYAN HALL'S 50/50 dvd, i liked it and i liked the moves. if i was rolling with a guy i would DEFINITELY throw a 50-50 into play if the fight called for it. I gotta be as versatile in every position as i can be and knowing/understanding 5050 is one of them
LOL, so I guess that makes you an expert, no? (Just teasing you a bit...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Sevigny
In SPORT Sambo, yes, but in FREESTYLE Sambo you use chokes and other submissions as well. (Also, COMBAT Sambo uses chokes as well as strikes, much like MMA rules really.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Sevigny
i thoguht sambo didnt allow chokes? or is that only in sport sambo you cant?
It depends on the rules of the competition. Last time I used 50/50 I injured my knee, so I don't really like the position that much.
5%5 is beautiful
no 2 opponents are 100% similar
someones going to be fast/skilled etc
so its only 50 50 physically
a black belt champion puts me in 50 50 its going to be 99 - 1
lol
50/50 is a Sambo position that isn't used often because of the risk involved.
I use both, it all depends on how the person responds. Reaps are easier to set up. When I grapple really athletic people like Anthony pettis the reaping style doesn't work unless I can get my reaping leg under his posting leg in time. 50/50 solves this. In mma he would punch me in the face, in grappling its only a matter of time. I'm currently working on a scissor sweep style leg lock position. Which solves the dangers of 50/50, but gives You the same submissions and then some.
This. 50/50 is not a new position nor is it ineffective. Clearly it can be an effective method of attack. That said, it exposes the attacker to a degree of risk that isn't there with the leg knot, outside wedge, etc. That risk can be mitigated by a skilled practitioner. Like Cookie pointed out, if I'm in Ryan Hall's 50/50 we are NOT at equal risk even though positionally we are at equal advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Mallory
First you have to understand its not 50/50 vs. Sambo style. Both the reaping style and what’s now referred to as 50/50 are methods utilized in Sambo. Its more a difference of Outside leg control (50/50) vs Inside leg control (Reaping).Quote:
Originally Posted by J Grooms
Sport rules dictate strategy, The reason you see the Reaping approach more in Sambo is because it has evolved further away from 50/50 (its still utilized but less often) and more towards Reaping approach over the past 7 decades. Where as in BJJ competition legocks have a very recent history of even being accepted as legitimate form of attack. Your less likely to see Reaping style of leg attacks in BJJ due to the restriction of rules (only black belt division allow the Reaping approach). As a competitor you’re going to spend less time on the techniques you’re not going to use in competition, stunting the development of that part of your game.
If your planning on focusing time on developing your leg attacks its necessary to put reps into both methods. If you neglect one over another, you are developing a hole in your over all game.
As to what benefits on one method has over another, it all depends what your goals are: Gi Jiu Jitsu? No-Gi? MMA? Sambo? Etc.
I’ll assume that since were on here on this forum your talking in terms of No-Gi and MMA.
For me its all about Risk Vs Reward.
I’m a supporter of the approach Low Risk/High Reward. In this case my choice is clearly the reaping style of leg attacks. There are various levels of control to the reaping style (we use the terms Clamp, Wedge and Knee Knot and my school). The clamp being the fastest method but offering the least amount of control of the 3, the Knee Knot offering the most control. I consider the Knee Knot to be the Spider Web of leg attacks. It offer and very high level of control with near zero amount of risk of a counter attack and a number of very effective submission options, to me it’s a straight Kill Zone.
For myself and my students the study of 50/50 is very important specifically for defensive purpose, personally the only time you really find me in 50/50 is if someone attacked me with it or during a scramble. In my experience it just doesn’t offer the same level of security as the reaping method, leaving yourself open to counter attacks while you’re attacking. Not a strategy I adhere to.
I actually play sambo quite a bit, and I very much prefer knee reaping over the 50/50. If I'm sparring with a guy that is at least familiar with the 50/50, then it often ends in stalling, and my ankles are still somewhat at risk. My best options in the 50/50, in my estimation, are to roll over onto my stomach and attempt a belly-down ankle lock, or stand up and smash them, then pull my leg out.
With knee reaping, I feel much safer, and the control there is just amazing, meaning that I have superior control. In the 50/50, you have control as well, but so does your opponent. I also really like working the sambo-style straight ankle locks, and knee reaping is a good setup for that. The compression-type straight ankle locks from jiu-jitsu aren't nearly as effective, and I can usually catch BJJ guys there because they're used to sitting ankle locks out.
I like the leg knot well above 50/50. Feels much safer
Thanks guys, I was just wondering because some BJJ guys swear by the 50/50 guard. I've been rocking the x-guard/leg lock combo lately.. and I was aware that it was all sambo, I just didn't know how to explain the difference properly without saying 50/50 vs Sambo. When I first started getting into leg locks around a year ago, I learned from a bodycomb dvd and some of my friends, who have had the privilege to go up to NY and train with Sambo Steve. Then add to that the reaper series that Coach Herzog put out and I felt like I had a pretty solid grasp of the leg lock game. (after many reps of course, still working on the swim move)
But like I said, the amount of ppl swearing by the 50/50 had me wondering if there were any advantages to the 50/50 game. I do end up playing 50/50 every once in awhile but we tend to shy away from it at my gym and just play reaper style.
Thanks again everyone :)
J I posted a video 2 weeks ago on the 10th Planet Rochester Training Blog (www.facebook.com/10thplanetjiujitsurochester) that you may be interested in. ;)
I enjoy both styles. Rules really do dictate style, however, as the 50/50 heel hook is illegal in the gi, really turning it into more of a transition position as opposed to nogi where the heel hook is always the most immediate threat.