is jiujitsu dying in MMA?

1st off i'll always fly the jiujitsu flag, & jiujitsu is still the best self defense martial art. & jits is still better than wrestling, catch or whatever thats a fact. but with the current mma scoring, jits players must sub there opponents or loose to lay & pray, because sweeps & sub attempts & dominant positions don't count for shit, ex: Torres vs Mouse, Penn vs fitch ect. & as Eddie says dudes guards aren't getting better, & all wrestlers are learning sub defense. & until the entire scoring system is changed, the sport favors wrestlers. in the past 2 or 3 ufc's there were 0 subs or maybee 1. hence the limited action for the gracies to breakdown, Eddie is right when he says jits looks bad in mma, because it does! mma is quickly becomming wrestling with strikes & piss pour jiujitsu. & good jits isn't appreciated. we all know rubber guard is desperately needed in mma but we may have to wait on both, a scoring system that actually rewards every aspect of mma, & a new generation of fighters who come in with rubber guard. until then be board to death by the clay guidas of mma, & piss pour defensive guards

I think people are forgetting that everyone uses BJJ against BJJ, so it's getting harder and harder to sub a guy. If everyone were olympic wrestlers, then take downs would be rare and people might say that wrestling is dying. I just think BJJ defense is easier than BJJ offense, so even though the guy has better BJJ, it's hard to see a difference.

btw, yes clay guida is very boring to me. when clay guida fights, I know it's time for a bathroom or snack break.

Guys who want to be good at MMA or even Nogi grappling need to stop looking at wrestling and jiu jitsu as two seperate entities. Wrestling and Jits in the gi are seperate but they should be considered combined when gi-less. Imagine what Penn or Torres games would look like if those guys where better wrestlers. It would open up submission opportunities for them and also prevent them from ever being smuthered Guida style. Or picture if Clay Guida was a top level jiu-jitsu guy and everytime he smothered and blanketed someone the way he does he got a sub out of it. It boils down to the reason wrestlers are boring is because they can't sub and the reason jiu-jitsu fighters get held down and layed on is because their wrestling sucks, both sides of the coin need to include the other in order fix this problem. Well, that or everyone needs to start learning 10th Planet.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

Guys who want to be good at MMA or even Nogi grappling need to stop looking at wrestling and jiu jitsu as two seperate entities. Wrestling and Jits in the gi are seperate but they should be considered combined when gi-less. Imagine what Penn or Torres games would look like if those guys where better wrestlers. It would open up submission opportunities for them and also prevent them from ever being smuthered Guida style. Or picture if Clay Guida was a top level jiu-jitsu guy and everytime he smothered and blanketed someone the way he does he got a sub out of it. It boils down to the reason wrestlers are boring is because they can't sub and the reason jiu-jitsu fighters get held down and layed on is because their wrestling sucks, both sides of the coin need to include the other in order fix this problem. Well, that or everyone needs to start learning 10th Planet.

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I agree.

I agree.. when the gi is off its all the same to me. Different philosophies sure, but an open minded grappler takes from everything.

true, everyone should learn 10th planet, or put me in a spaceship & wake me in 50 yrs when u.s. mma scoring finally makes since

i like it just the way it is now.. cause when the 10th planet guys all start taking over mma, noone will be ready for them. when it starts, it will be just like when bjj was intoduced to the ufc. noone will have an answer for a long time.

i ponder the same question, i think its because lets say YOUR on your back and they are ontop, they want to swing punches, you spend all this time BLOCKING and not enough time SETTING UP YOUR TECHNIQUES (at least not until they get the top guy to STOP MOVING first then they work their game) cause i say all the time watching a fight "why arent you hooking that leg and doing this/that sweep" cause youd think IF YOUR A BJJ BB, WHY ARENT THEY CONSTANTLY ATTACKING

no I think jui jitsu is growing. that's why you don't see as many subs being pulled off... because everybody knows how to defend against them.

I have had multiple posts like this on MMA sites saying : "10thPJJ will counter wrestling in it's 'laynpray' form, and make for a much more exciting ground game. When guys start learning 10pjj properly - Jiu Jitsu will rule mma again"
That is my opinion. I see it as a way to force your Jits on your enemy.
HOW many times did all of you think whilst watching Pettis - CONTROL THE POSTURE! I was pretty much screaming at my screen. Just breaking him down and simple mission control for a few seconds could have won him that fight.
Look I'm not saying it's perfect as rubber guarding guys like Rampage will get your neck broken but it really has the potential to eliminate the boringness of the ground game we see in MMA today.

Wrestling is definitely overshadowing jiu-jitsu w/ the recent successes of wrestlers... Brock Lesnar (v Mir), Cain Velasquez, Guida, Davis, Bader, Maynard, Edgar, etc. But that doesn't mean jiu-jitsu isn't relevant. It has to adapt to an entirely new set of problems.

Since wrestlers often end up in half guard and stall, I think MMA guys need to hone their half guard games to keep the flow of the fight moving, as well as explore new positions like deep half, de la riva, leg-lacing, etc. A lot of people dismiss these positions as useless in MMA, but when executed properly, they would be applicable just the same. It's the same reason that you don't see people throwing scissor takedowns in MMA... It's because everyone's practicing double-legs instead, even though a scissor would certainly work. They just require live-action practice like anything else.

The reason is in its current form, wrestling moves are being judged like strikes. If you pull them off individually you still get points for them even if in the end they did not achieve a K.O. Examples of such are clinch, pressing against the cage, different takedowns, getting top position from scramble etc.. BJJ gets very little almost 0 points for its moves. The only good outcome from BJJ is either getting the submission or preventing your face getting smashed in while losing a decision. Therefore a wrestler will always, pay attention to the word "always", win the decision against a BJJ guy. Since decisions are a huge part of MMA winning streaks, wrestling takes the center stage in these days.

I think that JJ took a major unintended hit when the UFC designed the cage & rules. It took a while for wrestlers to elevate the use of the cage & rules to a science - but once the formula was out there all of the elite wrestlers aspiring to fight in the UFC had a road map to follow.

Wrestlers naturally thrive in the cage but can struggle in the ring. Having a cage to jam your opponent into really smothers the bottom game. It also makes it easier to keep the clinch game going - a la the patented Guida dick-hug (at the waist, pushing against the cage if the shot fails, eventually he might get you down). Cage specific techniques also emphasize raw power & strength (not patience & long term strategy). This is why wrestlers were less effective in Pride & one of the reasons why Aoki struggled against Melendez in Strikeforce.

In Pride ground-fighters caught in the ropes just start over in the middle. It's more like fighting in a giant field. Without anything to get jammed up against sweeps become much more dangerous & mobility off of your back is much more effective.

Master Eddie is always talking about percentages. In the cage wrestling techniques all get +10% success rate, JJ takes a -10% hit. That is a 20% swing. Add to that rounds/time limits & you lose the ability to wait it out in the guard until the bigger/stronger opponent tires or makes a mistake (-10% for guard players). Finally, add to that the obscene judging bias for take-downs & top guard position (even when no real damage is done) & you have a recipe that greatly downplays the real world effectiveness of JJ.

Now I'm not saying that cage fighting is unrealistic - many fights happen in a bar/ally/whatever where there are corners & immovable objects to pin your opponent against while delivering GnP. But I do think this explains why JJ has been suffering more & more as the elite wrestler learns to use the cage environment & wrestler-friendly rules to advantage.

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Originally Posted by Calan

I have had multiple posts like this on MMA sites saying : "10thPJJ will counter wrestling in it's 'laynpray' form, and make for a much more exciting ground game. When guys start learning 10pjj properly - Jiu Jitsu will rule mma again"
That is my opinion. I see it as a way to force your Jits on your enemy.
HOW many times did all of you think whilst watching Pettis - CONTROL THE POSTURE! I was pretty much screaming at my screen. Just breaking him down and simple mission control for a few seconds could have won him that fight.
Look I'm not saying it's perfect as rubber guarding guys like Rampage will get your neck broken but it really has the potential to eliminate the boringness of the ground game we see in MMA today.

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Well, it's not just 10th Planet.. basically any guard that exploits an overhook has the ability to catch a wrestler who prefers to pass or attack the guard with a low posture. Which is why it is even more baffling that you see guys still using push pull wrist control triangle setups in MMA. Personally, I think it's nuts since if you lose control of one wrist, the fist attached to that wrist will be flying towards your head.

I mean every competent BJJ school/instructor has some overhook/overwrap setups in their game. Why they don't use them on opponents that just give you their posture is a mystery to me. Obviously there's an element of "easier said than done" in play but I don't even see guys grabbing the overhook when the arm is down. I'm sure you guys have rolled with non 10th Planet guys, people just give up the overhook all day.

the saddest part is when people pin you against the cage, but i understand its YOUR responsibility to get up and out, but when you only have one-side to work with it makes your bjj alot harder to deal with

To think of mixed martial artists as, well, artists - and to thus to think of individual martial arts styles as art forms (which they are, wrestling included) - it stands to reason that artists in a set period of time will favour one form over the other.

If jiu-jitsu is currently being overshadowed by wrestling, that's not to say that it's dying. It's just one of many colours on the ever-changing, constantly growing canvas that is MMA. D'oh, this explanation seemed much clearer in than in print!

I'll also throw some crude stats into the equation - which actually don't conclude this discussion one way or another but are interesting nonetheless:

According to Sherdog's fight finder out of the 78 (or so) UFC fights that have taken place in 2011, 14 of them ended in submission victories; mainly triangles and chokes - as well as that delightful Twister that you may have heard about ;-)

*edit*

"D'oh, this explanation seemed much clearer in than in print!" should read:

D'oh, this explanation seemed much clearer in my head than in print! :-)

JJ isn't dying....it's just not evolving to where it should be. I see little signs here and there. I mean Fabio Maldonado pulled off a friggin deep half guard sweep in MMA!!! My jaw dropped cuz I always thought deep half was suicide in MMA, but he pulled it off. It shows me that JJ is evolving, it just hasn't solved the puzzle of the smothering wrestler.

JJ in MMA just needs to adapt. Yeah a part of it is learning wrestling. But not to wrestle. To counter it.

Example: Clay Guida's base is wrestling. He had to learn boxing. Why? So he can be more aware of opponent's foot work and get a better sense of when they would strike so he could avoid it and play HIS game. He learned BJJ to avoid submissions so he could play HIS game.

See what I'm saying? It's all about learning so that you can play your game. It would be foolish for a guy who has rudimentary boxing skills to try and box with a boxer. Likewise, it'd be foolish for a BJJ guy to try and wrestler an NCAA wrestler. No, you gotta learn his game to avoid it and play YOUR game.

IMO, as long as the UFC rules stand as they are, BJJ guys shouldn't even be training subs from the bottom. They should all be sweep masters. I mean, seriously, you know how tough it is to land a sub WITHOUT punches...imagine WITH punches! Anderson couldn't do it in 3. He needed 5! Seriously, being on the bottom is horrible in the eyes of the judges. As a matter of fact, I saw some MMA fights in PA a few months back and saw guys with excellent JJ lose, despite being in control the whole time, basically because they were on their back.....even though they were controlling and firing off sub attempt after sub attempt.

I'm telling you, IMO, the next evolution of BJJ in MMA needs to be a ridiculous sweep/reversal game. Dudes need to reverse and work on a killer top game. RG is great and superior for setting up submissions....but as long as you're on bottom, with these rules, you're losing. So until that changes, dudes need to be sweep masters.

AJ, true indeed, i'm not a fan of wrist control at all. 1st off at the higher levels of jiujitsu you attack with A & B to kill with C misdirection is key. in mma to setup a triangle with wrist control & to be hunting for that only is to damn obvious. it's easy for wrestlers to defend 1 attack at a time especially via wrist control. over unders, gable, clinch, anti posture, rubber guard, sub combos, & were in business

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads...meh.ro5750.jpg





...of course I jest. :P

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

IMO, as long as the UFC rules stand as they are, BJJ guys shouldn't even be training subs from the bottom. They should all be sweep masters. I mean, seriously, you know how tough it is to land a sub WITHOUT punches...imagine WITH punches! Anderson couldn't do it in 3. He needed 5! Seriously, being on the bottom is horrible in the eyes of the judges. As a matter of fact, I saw some MMA fights in PA a few months back and saw guys with excellent JJ lose, despite being in control the whole time, basically because they were on their back.....even though they were controlling and firing off sub attempt after sub attempt.

I'm telling you, IMO, the next evolution of BJJ in MMA needs to be a ridiculous sweep/reversal game. Dudes need to reverse and work on a killer top game. RG is great and superior for setting up submissions....but as long as you're on bottom, with these rules, you're losing. So until that changes, dudes need to be sweep masters.

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For some subs, I find it easier to get the opening when there are punches... And then there are others that are more difficult.

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Originally Posted by RichardC

For some subs, I find it easier to get the opening when there are punches... And then there are others that are more difficult.

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The higher level wrestlers in the UFC aren't opening up to give punches anymore. Now they are literally throwing arm punches from defensive guard positions, with little to no power. The old school wrestlers like Tito Ortiz used to alternate between killing your hips and posturing up to strike. Modern wrestlers now just kill your hips and throw short punches to keep the action from being stood up.

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Originally Posted by RichardC

For some subs, I find it easier to get the opening when there are punches... And then there are others that are more difficult.

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Punches might open things up to latch on, but it's different when you're getting punched while trying to finish. Example, you get stacked on while trying to go for an armbar. That's difficult as it is, but imagine now your face is getting pounded in. JJ for tourney and JJ for MMA are two different monsters. A lot of our favorite grapplers aren't going to fare well in MMA since they're not training to deal with punches.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

The higher level wrestlers in the UFC aren't opening up to give punches anymore. Now they are literally throwing arm punches from defensive guard positions, with little to no power. The old school wrestlers like Tito Ortiz used to alternate between killing your hips and posturing up to strike. Modern wrestlers now just kill your hips and throw short punches to keep the action from being stood up.

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And that's what makes them boring.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

Punches might open things up to latch on, but it's different when you're getting punched while trying to finish. Example, you get stacked on while trying to go for an armbar. That's difficult as it is, but imagine now your face is getting pounded in. JJ for tourney and JJ for MMA are two different monsters. A lot of our favorite grapplers aren't going to fare well in MMA since they're not training to deal with punches.




And that's what makes them boring.

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I don't have to imagine, I've been there. Pure grappling and MMA. And what you're saying is perfectly valid. I just find more openings for some subs when there are strikes involved. The triangle is one example.

You're also right that a lot of pure grapplers are terrible in MMA. But the inverse is true, as well. It depends on how well you can adapt your game. I was at some pro fights a month or two ago where a local BB (from Brazil originally, can't recall his name off the top of my head) pulled off an inverted guard kneebar on a kid I know. Inverted guard is supposed to be a no-no in MMA, but he made it work. I've seen plenty of others try it, though, and get pounded to death.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

The higher level wrestlers in the UFC aren't opening up to give punches anymore. Now they are literally throwing arm punches from defensive guard positions, with little to no power. The old school wrestlers like Tito Ortiz used to alternate between killing your hips and posturing up to strike. Modern wrestlers now just kill your hips and throw short punches to keep the action from being stood up.

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You're 100% right. Ground and pound has changed quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

Guys who want to be good at MMA or even Nogi grappling need to stop looking at wrestling and jiu jitsu as two seperate entities. Wrestling and Jits in the gi are seperate but they should be considered combined when gi-less. Imagine what Penn or Torres games would look like if those guys where better wrestlers. It would open up submission opportunities for them and also prevent them from ever being smuthered Guida style. Or picture if Clay Guida was a top level jiu-jitsu guy and everytime he smothered and blanketed someone the way he does he got a sub out of it. It boils down to the reason wrestlers are boring is because they can't sub and the reason jiu-jitsu fighters get held down and layed on is because their wrestling sucks, both sides of the coin need to include the other in order fix this problem. Well, that or everyone needs to start learning 10th Planet.

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Just to add to your comment. To augment your 10PJJ take a look at Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling (CSW). He superbly combines wrestling and jits and a few other arts into something pretty awesome. He's down in Orange County :-)

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Originally Posted by RichardC

I don't have to imagine, I've been there. Pure grappling and MMA. And what you're saying is perfectly valid. I just find more openings for some subs when there are strikes involved. The triangle is one example.

You're also right that a lot of pure grapplers are terrible in MMA. But the inverse is true, as well. It depends on how well you can adapt your game. I was at some pro fights a month or two ago where a local BB (from Brazil originally, can't recall his name off the top of my head) pulled off an inverted guard kneebar on a kid I know. Inverted guard is supposed to be a no-no in MMA, but he made it work. I've seen plenty of others try it, though, and get pounded to death.

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Great post. Wise words. It really is about how you adapt your game to the situation. Inverted guard? :o wow! I'd like to see that in a higher level competition. I know I've read some people say deep half guard is a no no in MMA but Fabio Maldonado pulled off an amazing deep half sweep the other day in the UFC. It really is about how you use your game in a given situation.

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Originally Posted by Leigh Richardson

Just to add to your comment. To augment your 10PJJ take a look at Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling (CSW). He superbly combines wrestling and jits and a few other arts into something pretty awesome. He's down in Orange County :-)

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QFT.